Heavy Rain

[KvP]

Heavy Rain. It's coming out for the PS3 in the very near future (this week I think?) and if it weren't for the fact that I know literally no one with a PS3, I'd play it. Do any of y'all have PS3's? Anybody gonna play it?

Here's a 6 minute spoiler-y sequence featuring very NSFW nudity, and some scares (some of which come a bit cheap). Basically it looks like Indigo Prophecy + A facelift - all the crazy shit (one hopes). A shame I won't be able to play it.

[Storm Rider]

I just wish... that it was more interactive? I get that the story is dynamic based on how much you fuck up the QTEs, but they're still QTEs... for the whole game. On top of that, David Cage sounds like the smuggest fucking douche on the planet from all the interviews I've read. I guess I'm glad that somebody is trying to push the limits of believable human interaction in games, I just have no real interest in Heavy Rain as a video game.

[Tom]

This adds to the still very small list of why one should own a PS3. Seriously, FF XIII and Uncharted?

[Ikrik]

There is much, much more than a small list of why you should own a PS3.  But seriously, that's a whole other argument.

They released a game that allows you to unlock a demo for this, I'd link it but just go to like Kotaku or Destructoid and they'll give you the answers as well.  I spent a whole day trying to get to the site because the thing was down the whole time.  People just kept swarming the site.  After sleeping I got it, got myself a European PSN and downloaded the demo.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.  "Oh, it's just a bunch of Quick Time Events, nothing special."  No.  No.  It is much better than that.  They basically give you a tutorial, an interview with a woman followed by a fight scene and an investigation.  The tutorial is what you expect.  But it's the interview and fight that blew me away.  Have you ever had a fight scene in a game that blew you away? That made you absolutely terrified about the outcome?  My adrenalin was pumping so hard during this fight.  It was visceral and brutal and the "quick-time events" is so much more involved than simply smashing Square, or a combination of Square and Triangle. 

The investigation was set in this area and you put on these sort of goggles that help you identify things.  You go straight up to a dead body and talk to the guy in charge for a while, he doesn't really like you.  And then you investigate.  There are about 10-13 things that you can investigate and I think 3 or 4 of them are useless to you, police contaminating the crime scene, or something unrelated.  But then there are some really cool things. 

Storm Rider, do you have a PS3?  Cause you should really then get a hold of this demo because it completely changed how I felt about it, all my fears were just completely wiped out from playing it.

[Storm Rider]

I don't. I plan to buy one eventually, but I'm unemployed right now and I can't really afford to buy a whole new platform at the moment.

[bryanthelion]

That's strange that the demo code worked for you guys: it didn't work for me.

Is there a special trick to enter it on the PlayStation site?

[Ikrik]

You have to create a European PSN account.  So when you sign up for a PSN account on your computer, simply put your Country as the UK, fill it out.  Then you go onto your PS3, sign into the new Euro account and redeem the code through there.

[Alex C]

There is much, much more than a small list of why you should own a PS3.  But seriously, that's a whole other argument.

Really? I bought one and then ended up turning around and selling it after I had realized I had just paid several hundred dollars to play Ratchet and Clank. Uncharted just wasn't doing it for me, and I'm on the record as an MGS and FF hater.

[Sam]

this and the last guardian are why i want a ps3

[Ikrik]

this and the last guardian are why i want a ps3

The Last Guardian is the reason I chose the PS3.  There were slight considerations for God of War and the RROD, but it was mostly for Trico.

->Alex C
Valkyria Chronicles, inFamous, Killzone 2, God Of War, upgradeable HD space that doesn't cost you a million bones, the Pixeljunk Series, Flower. These are all just offhand, I personally like the exclusives of the PS3 more than I like the ones for the 360.  Fable and GoW are pretty cool and some of the downloadable games are amazing....but enough to say that it's not worth owning a PS3? Not a chance. Honestly though, the only reason I feel jealous of 360 owners is when I look at my dualshocks and remember how comfy and snug that 360 controller felt in my hand.

I have the special edition pre-ordered from Europe...I was really bummed when they decided not to release it in North America.  I wonder how long it will take for it to get to me.

[Alex C]

Yeah, I guess I'm just not interested in any of those games, at least not interested enough to have a 3rd console around. It'd be nice to have Wipeout HD again though.

[est]

I was kind of interested in this game until I saw it was PS3 exclusive, then I just thought it was a shame.  There's not really enough PS3-only stuff to justify me buying one.

[ackblom12]

This game fucking roooooocks guys.

[Jrod]

how many hours of play time do you think is in it? i want to get it, i loved the demo, but some reviews are saying it's about 8 hours in length, and i can't justify dropping $60 on something that will last me a weekend...

[ackblom12]

Everything I've heard is 8 - 12 hours

But I think that discounts multiple playthroughs to see what happens if you do x instead of Y

[KvP]

Sony is reportedly very pleased with sales thus far, especially in terms of pre-orders.

Liking Quantic Dream as much as I do, this is good news. I was concerned the sales might be pour.

[scarred]

I haven't played it (yet?) but it seems too good for its own good.

[Johnny C]

I was concerned the sales might be pour.

christ

[KvP]

hey man don't dampen the mood.

[Ikrik]

My pre-order edition shipped from Europe 4 days ago and I have been waiting at my doorstep every day since.  I live in Canada so I assume that it's going to take another week at least to get here.  I am however, so freaking impatient.  The guy from Sony saying that it's selling well can go away somewhere else, it hasn't even been a month yet.  I want to know how well it's doing in a month or so, not like...4 days.

[Number17]

I'm usually never on here, but I have to break my silence to let people know how much I hate this game.

I hate this game. I hate the idea that anyone liked this game. I hate hate hate HATED this fucking game.

I hate the so called gameplay and it's assumption that moving a stick or just pressing a button at the right time constitutes a game.

I hate the voice actors and their inability to pronounce the word "Origami"

I hate the plot and the massive FUCK plot hole that it leaves wide open that a third grader would be able to spot.

I hate the controls and the idea that moving with R2 was considered to be a good idea.

I hate Heavy Rain.

I banked on the hopes that Heavy Rain would be a good game. Most critics hold Heavy Rain to a high standard with most of the scores being a 8.5 to 9.5. That is good considering most games I play that is scored that high I consider to be good games. They missed the mark on this one in the worst kind of way.

Heavy Rain stars four main characters that you play. Ethan, Madison, Scott and Jayden all of which are stuck together in this plot to find the Origami killer before he lets Ethan's young son Shaun die. Now, let's get this out of the way. The plot is tired, but the way they tell it is pretty good. Up until the point where you actually find out who the Origami killer is in which case the plot doesn't hold itself up anymore and you begin to hate every aspect of it.

Now, let's tackle the gameplay first. This is not a video game. Fuck you, this is not a video game. This is an interactive movie in every way. Here is why it is NOT a video game. Heavy Rain has you move your character around, but that is pretty much all the control you have over their actions. Anything else is you just reacting to something that is happening to your character and the plot develops around that. This would be, I guess, okay if the plot didn't suck. Yet, this still leaves out the fact that this game is very linear and only requires you to react when you want to or if required. In theory you could not touch the controller at all (except when you need to walk) and the game will play out.

That is fucking retarded. This is why it is an interactive movie and not a video game. In which case movies usually cost $25 and I want a $35 refund.

Someone tried to tell me this was an Adventure game, but NO it is not. An adventure game can have the same elements as Heavy Rain, but you are usually more involved. You have an item list or you solve puzzles or both. In Heavy Rain you do no such thing. You only do what the game allows you to do which seriously limits the gameplay elements and my patience.

Also, whoever thought moving around using R2 needs to be shot between the eyes. That is NOT very fun. They could have just replaced all the motions required for action with the left analog stick rather than have me use both. The idea that I need to use to the left one to move my head is just stupid and unnecessary. It requires more work and leaves for clunky gameplay.

To finish with this point; any emotion of excitement I had with this game wasn't a result of actual gameplay, but rather a emotion I was feeling as if I was watching a movie. There is one scene in the game where Scott comes gunning for an old billionaire. You, of course, press the right buttons to trigger your gun, but that wasn't really gameplay. It felt more like I was just interacting with a movie. It was cool, but not a game.

Now, the plot.

It's stupid.

SPOILER ALERT!

Scott is the Origami killer. The funny thing is that there is not hint that he may be the killer. Instead we are left with a gaping plot hole to explain WHY he is the killer.

First, why would Scott want to investigate himself? He had every reason to cover up his crimes in the end and yet he went through all the trouble to bring someone along with him.

Second, you have control of Scott most of the time when you play him. There is an instance where Scott kills a friend of his to cover his tracks. However, you have complete control of Scott when the murder happens and do not see him do it. However, later on it just decides to let you know that Scott DID kill him.

HOW THE FUCK AND WHEN THE FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN!?

Lastly, in terms of narrative this really sucks. Because we are all in a first person narrative. We are in the minds of the characters and we know everything they are thinking. Therefore if we know everything Scott is thinking then we should figure out that he is the FUCKING KILLER! In fact you press L2 to go into their mind to figure out what they are thinking. Oh wait a second, where is the thought where he goes, "I'm the killer by the way. You just wasted $60. Go jerk off now and cry bitches cause these French developers are making bank off of your hard earned money."

Also, one of your characters Ethan, has blackouts and it is revealed that he may possibly be the Origami killer. However, they don't bother to explain where he is during those blackouts and the possibility fizzles out for a new one involving Scott. Yet, they still don't bother to explain where Ethan is during the blackouts and why he is holding an Origami figure. This is a major plot element and they essentially throw it away.

Also, who the fuck picked these voice actors? The child actors suck...I mean horribly. It seems like someone told them, "Read this before you can watch TV." The adult actors aren't any better. For example, Jayden, is a British man really trying hard to sound American. So when he talks it sounds distant and almost Bostonian, but not quite American. Also, everyone pronounces Origami as Oryigaymi and I'm pretty sure if this game took place in Boston that everyone would pronounce words weird. This, however, seems to be the only word that people can't seem to pronounce right and it's kind of annoying.

The ending kind of fizzles out and becomes something boring and uneventful. After all that work and going through the 10 hour game you get an ending that isn't even worth your time.

So in the end...I wouldn't waste my time with this game.

I hated this so much that I'm sending it to a friend who lives in New Hampshire and overnight package with the game. Just so he can know how bad this game is.

I also just don't want it in my house anymore. I hate it that much.

[Sam]

you want it to be one way.

[jhocking]

um, the first two minutes of that video are a series of QTEs for some chick taking a shower and then going to the bathroom. Setting aside for a moment the fact that gamers have hated QTEs since Dragon's Lair hit the arcades nearly 30 years ago, how is guiding someone through using the bathroom in any way compelling gameplay?

[Zombiedude]

That isn't quite true. What about RE4 and God o' War? People loved those for the most part.

[Alex C]

Both of those games were highly polished flagship titles that used other mechanics for their central game play. I'd also argue that in both cases the quick time events were easily the worst parts of the game. I genuinely believe that QTEs have gotten this far largely by being strongly associated with games that would have been considered good regardless of their inclusion.

[Zombiedude]

RE4 would have been incredibly stiff without it.

[KvP]

um, the first two minutes of that video are a series of QTEs for some chick taking a shower and then going to the bathroom. Setting aside for a moment the fact that gamers have hated QTEs since Dragon's Lair hit the arcades nearly 30 years ago, how is guiding someone through using the bathroom in any way compelling gameplay?

Any gamer who dismisses QTEs is full of shit, real talk. It's gaming distilled into its most basic constituent parts - pressing the right button at the right time. Quantic Dream just has the decency not to delude gamers into thinking they have control over a character, which has its own advantages, namely an approach to animation that doesn't look ridiculous (or at least, looks less ridiculous than usual). On the other end of the spectrum, the few games that have attempted to better approximate player input into gameplay (most of them on the Wii) have been largely awful. There's no better way to pull off a "cinematic game" than Quantic Dream's approach.

[Number17]

Does it matter that it still sucks?

[Zombiedude]

I'd play the fuck outta this game if it were on the pc

[Alex C]

Any gamer who dismisses QTEs is full of shit, real talk.

I'd say I don't dismiss QTEs so much as I dismiss the context many use them in. Most games that do quick time events badly fail at it because they have little regard for the context. For example, I was fine with the QTEs in GOW1. But when they sprang 'em on you at the end in the middle of a pseudo cinema, I found it annoying and not much of a "bonus." Still wasn't a bad game though, which is why I was never really down on QTEs as many people are.

[jhocking]

There's no better way to pull off a "cinematic game" than Quantic Dream's approach.

Which just calls into question the advisability of doing an overly cinematic game.

Well actually there's a good reason for companies to keep making really pretty looking games, but that reason has nothing to do with how good they are as games. Really pretty looking games sell well, so companies keep making them. But they're boring as games; whatever interest they have is due to the novelty of their lush graphics (witness the incredible success of Myst, an incredibly boring game) or the fact that you're basically watching a movie.

Saying "gaming boils down to pressing the right button at the right time" is technically correct I suppose, but that is as reductionist as a statement can get. There's a big difference between pressing a random button at random intervals and, say, analyzing the layout of dozens of buildings and troops on a big map before choosing one of a dozen different things to build or destinations to target (ie. an RTS game.)

The awfulness of cinematic games with QTEs has been established for almost my entire life; refer to number 29 on this list:
http://www.develop-online.net/features/699/50-games-every-developer-should-play

And actually, thinking about that gameplay video it occurs to me this game might even have the worst kind of QTEs, instant death. That was truly the bane of Dragon's Lair, the fact that you would constantly die due to missing randomly timed button presses and have to start over with the whole tedious sequence. The gameplay video you posted included several points where the character narrowly avoids getting knifed in the chest; does that mean if you missed the button press you'd be dead and have to repeat the sequence? god I hope not

[KvP]

Nay, the death of a particular character does not stop the story. I suppose if all 4 controllable characters die that's the end of the game, but the game will play out differently based on whether or not you can pull through with the characters.

I suppose it comes down to what it is you want from your games. Heavy Rain is appealing to those for whom narrative virtues trump gameplay virtues. The whole point of Heavy Rain is the narrative, and choice / consequence variation. That strategy games aren't part of the "the right button at the right time" lineage (and they certainly aren't, I wouldn't dispute that) is beside the point, as the sequence in question doesn't really lend itself to RTS gameplay. It lends itself to fighter gameplay, which has more or less always been "the right button at the right time". How else would you have set up that particular in-game sequence? Include traditional "beat-em-up" gameplay? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, as the whole point of the sequence is that the character is supposed to be relatively helpless and only surviving by the skin of her teeth. Gamers are going to be at least competent, most will probably be supremely competent, and thus trying to set up a real-time fighting element to the game will either be prohibitively difficult, or so easy that it will serve to create an even greater disconnect between the character and the player than you would normally find (most games get around this problem by having the main character lack any sort of weakness or fault). Plus it wouldn't be a fraction as interesting, visually. Quantic Dream has absolute control over the game, which is something that you have to accept going into it if you're going to enjoy it.

Ultimately, anybody who can make something like the first few hours of Fahrenheit deserves to be heeded. The problem with that game was that it started off as an experience that was literally unparalleled in gaming before it devolved into a super-condensed mythological clusterfuck. Everything that I've heard suggests that Heavy Rain is the game Fahrenheit should have been. I could give a fuck that it's not Madden or whatever.

[Alex C]

Yeah, I can agree with that to an extent. The difference between scary and mundane is often a matter of difficulty and how capable you can be with their character. I've made the Ninja Gaiden vs. Silent Hill analogy before on this forum. The critters that harrass James Sunderland aren't necessarily all that more intimidating than some of the shit Ryu Hayabusa faces, but in the latter game you always have a reasonable expectation of waltzing up to the offending baddie and ruining their shit.

That said, I never liked Silent Hill games. I'm not htat into theatrics.

[DarkAvenger]

I remember back when I bought my Gamecube I got a demo disc that had a couple of games on it. Nothing really that great, a Sonic Game among others. Except for one. Indigo Prophecy (or as it may be more commonly known Fahrenheit). Man that demo was a mindfuck. I absolutely loved it. All I remember from it was having to clean up a murder that you committed without knowing inside the bathroom of a diner and then trying to get out without being caught. There were so many different pathways to take in that short ten minute demo. Even though I never actually played the full game and I hear the latter half was pretty shady I still look for it whenever I'm at my local game store in the bargain bins.

I am definitely going to get this game.

[KvP]

You might not have been able to find it because it's not out for the Gamecube!

If you've got a 360 and a Live connection you can buy it for download.

[Number17]

Nay, the death of a particular character does not stop the story. I suppose if all 4 controllable characters die that's the end of the game, but the game will play out differently based on whether or not you can pull through with the characters.

I suppose it comes down to what it is you want from your games. Heavy Rain is appealing to those for whom narrative virtues trump gameplay virtues. The whole point of Heavy Rain is the narrative, and choice / consequence variation. That strategy games aren't part of the "the right button at the right time" lineage (and they certainly aren't, I wouldn't dispute that) is beside the point, as the sequence in question doesn't really lend itself to RTS gameplay. It lends itself to fighter gameplay, which has more or less always been "the right button at the right time". How else would you have set up that particular in-game sequence? Include traditional "beat-em-up" gameplay? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, as the whole point of the sequence is that the character is supposed to be relatively helpless and only surviving by the skin of her teeth. Gamers are going to be at least competent, most will probably be supremely competent, and thus trying to set up a real-time fighting element to the game will either be prohibitively difficult, or so easy that it will serve to create an even greater disconnect between the character and the player than you would normally find (most games get around this problem by having the main character lack any sort of weakness or fault). Plus it wouldn't be a fraction as interesting, visually. Quantic Dream has absolute control over the game, which is something that you have to accept going into it if you're going to enjoy it.

Ultimately, anybody who can make something like the first few hours of Fahrenheit deserves to be heeded. The problem with that game was that it started off as an experience that was literally unparalleled in gaming before it devolved into a super-condensed mythological clusterfuck. Everything that I've heard suggests that Heavy Rain is the game Fahrenheit should have been. I could give a fuck that it's not Madden or whatever.

My problem with Fahrenheit (other than the clusterfuck that was the plot) was the same problem I had with Heavy Rain. I don't consider either games to be really "games". Instead I find them to be overplayed cinematic games where they focus more on the plot and less on gameplay elements.

If that's what you want to fucking call them.

The fact that a narrative virtue trumps the gameplay virtue to most games explains a lot why a lot of games out there are really popular. A great example would be Mass Effect 2. Great plot, but the action gets fairly repetitive after a while. Another would be Final Fantasy VII. Some people found the plot to be great (I didn't) but the RPG elements were dumbed down considerably.

The fact that you are more focused on the plot of a video game than if you are having fun with the game says something about you as a gamer. You over emphasis one aspect of the game that makes up for another one that is really lacking.

The plot and the gameplay must go hand in hand and one shouldn't really have to compensate for the other. I cite Heavy Rain again where I found the "gameplay" to be an annoying triage of random quick time events. I don't really care if the plot revolves around if I press a button correctly at the right time or not. The fact that I have to without any real strategy behind it is what annoys me.

The purpose of the person playing this game is just to advance the plot. You are not playing the game, but rather advancing the plot. It's like if you were watching a TV show and during the commercial break they ask you to pick if you want the love interest to live or die. You make your choice and that continues your TV show. The same thing goes around here only they pretend that if you push the button at the right time then you have more control.

So, again, I hate that. A lot.

I have never played a game where I felt less control over my character than this one.

For the life of me I cannot understand the appeal nor can I understand why everyone loves this game. I can't and I don't think I ever will.

*sigh*

God, Heavy Rain sucked.

[KvP]

The plot and the gameplay must go hand in hand and one shouldn't really have to compensate for the other.

Do you hate Mario games with the same passion as you do Heavy Rain? Because I honestly don't believe that you actually believe this.

The fact that you are more focused on the plot of a video game than if you are having fun with the game says something about you as a gamer.

I haven't played Heavy Rain. But I have played Fahrenheit, and before the rush job became apparent I had more fun with it than maybe 95% of games I've played. It was really incredible. Great soundtrack, too.

I have never played a game where I felt less control over my character than this one.

Quantic Dream doesn't seem to condescend to players the way that most developers do. The amount of actual control you have over the player character in this sort of game is not particularly miniscule. In fact I would suspect that it's actually greater than most games, certainly in terms of choice and consequence. If it seems as though you lack control over your character it's likely because you conceive of "control" as primarily concerning control of position and action in a combat minigame.

[DarkAvenger]

You might not have been able to find it because it's not out for the Gamecube!

If you've got a 360 and a Live connection you can buy it for download.

Thanks for the tip! I do find it so weird lame that the demo would be for a system it isn't being released on though.

[KvP]

That is weird. Perhaps Atari axed a gamecube port before it went to manufacturers. Hard to say.

[Alex C]

Do you hate Mario games with the same passion as you do Heavy Rain? Because I honestly don't believe that you actually believe this.

Yeah, he is coming across as someone who hates on salsa for not being icecream. Personally, I do think Heavy Rain looks like it's in many ways more a movie than it is a game, but that's not necessarily a bad thing even if it isn't my cup of tea. For one thing, such games often have an exploration element that you don't get from films.

[Number17]

What? I gave all my reasons why I really hate this game.

Didn't I point out that I DON'T like the plot and in a cinematic game where the plot it everything doesn't that sort of justify me for disliking something of this magnitude?

Also, if you guys enjoy QTE then by all means you will like this game because that's all it is. On the one hand if you fail to press a certain button the plot will manage itself and continue without the arbitrary "Game Over" screen that comes with most games. It's an interesting concept, but again, they sacrifice the concept of playing an actual video game rather to provide all of their radical ideas on what goes into a game.

Why would I hate Mario? Well, I'll backtrack a little on what I said about, "plot and gameplay" going hand in hand. That wasn't really true back in the old school gaming era and could be said now. Then again, what's to say that there is anything wrong with Mario? Princess gets kidnapped and you have to save her. Have fun going about collecting stars.

The difference between Mario and Heavy Rain are this: At the end of pressing a button to do action I still have control over Mario. I can do whatever I want with Mario. I can make Mario jump, shoot fireballs, jump on a goomba head or run him in circles for a few hours if that fits my playing style. You don't get that luxury in Heavy Rain. Instead you are only required to react WHEN NECESSARY. That is it.

It's a movie with some interactive elements. I don't like that. I don't like the concept.

By the way, I actually PLAYED the game unlike some of the people defending it. I mean if you played the Demo and think you can stand doing that for the entire game then by all means go for it. Buy the game, rave about it and then sleep content knowing that you payed $60 for an interactive film.

I on the other hand will be getting rid of this shit as soon as possible.

[Alex C]

What?

It's a movie with some interactive elements. I don't like that. I don't like the concept.

You basically answered your own question. It's fine that you don't like Heavy Rain because it doesn't fit your expectations or your ideal of what a video game should be like. Opinions are opinions. But stating that the action and the plot must be in balance as a general rule comes across as frankly rather presumptuous and ignores the fact that in many, many games the "balance" skews almost completely towards action and never looks back. It'd be more accurate to simply admit that you prefer for your games to be action oriented.

[RallyMonkey]

Number17, you should start reading posts before angrily replying. Also, if you played Fahrenheit and hated it so much, why would you play Heavy Rain?

[Ozymandias]

Basically you have an opinion and its cool that you have an opinion and because of your opinion you don't like Heavy Rain which is also okay but it's not Heavy Rain's fault because the game was not trying to satisfy you or your opinion in the first place.

[Johnny C]

what is a "game"

[Ozymandias]

...a...a miserable pile of secrets?

[Felrender]

...a...a miserable pile of QTEs.

[Number17]

Number17, you should start reading posts before angrily replying. Also, if you played Fahrenheit and hated it so much, why would you play Heavy Rain?

Maybe because I actually listen to reviewers and people who tell me when something is "sick" and "awesome".

I couldn't find a single negative thing about Heavy Rain online.

So, I got the game assuming that maybe that Fahrenheit was a fluke.

It wasn't.

I will give props to the developers in making a plot that was at least better than Fahrenheit. Course, in my eyes, that's like saying one bowl of poop is better than the other.

It's still a bowl of poop.

[Zombiedude]

I would fuck that bowl of poop so hard then.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

that's gross

you guys are gross

yuck