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[Johnny C]

Okay, so the first "rule" of being an excessive hipster is that nothing is good if anybody else likes it, right? Well, I believe I have discovered the second rule.

See, I frequently discuss new albums with my friends. Oftentimes, I like follow-up albums. They stand well on their own, sort of thing. The problem is, I often come across people who state that they were better before they sold out, or the new album is good, but not anywhere as good as their first one. Here, therefore, is the Second Universal Rule Of Hipsterism:


"Their Old Stuff Is Always Much Better"


Caveats:

1) If you are discussing a band's sophomore effort, then their new stuff is good, but their old stuff was absolutely visionary, dammit. They will NEVER measure up to the genius of their debut.

2) Whenever a band releases a new album past the sophomore effort, then whatever album is the second newest is light-years ahead of what they are doing now.


Equation:

Number of albums (A) divided by two equals the comprable quality of their new material (M).

A/2=M

[ree]

noted.

[Jamoky]

yeah, totally.  Their first album was a lyrical masterpiece, but then they sold out to please the tasteless masses.

[Thal]

Well, this is a good start of "The Hipsters Rulebook".

But what if they release a "Best Of Album" with only the old stuff that, according to the rule, is better the "sold out stuff". How do you add that into the equation?

Or is this an expetion that simply dont count?

[flowers for charlie]

there was an article at somethingawful.com that addressed a very similar subject: http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2424

in part two, "How To Be A Bastard", Dr. Thorpe suggests several ways to seem like a musical jackass, which is basically the same thing as a hipster.

[honest_that_way]

You must take into account certain anomalys, in this equation. 'The Best Of' will generally only be released by a band wiith some sort of standing however, so you should dislike them already.

[Thal]

Good point. Missed that fact before.

So, whats rule number three?

[happybirthdaygelatin]

only two people fight at a time?

[Rhomboid]

Okay, so I was wondering what is the heiarchy of indieness amongst types of musical recordings?

Does it go:
Records
Tapes
Cds
Mp3s

or....

Tapes
Records
Cds
Mp3s

and where do concerts fit in to this? hmmmm

[Rhomboid]

O yueah sorry to double post.

Somebody needs to make another Indie/Emo Faq type thread like we had in the old forum. Maybe I will.....but probably not.

[BrittanyMarie]

I think it goes Records>tapes>mp3s>cds. This thread made me smile.

[Mercurial]

Edit: Omitted.  I completely forgot that the first rule of hipsterism originally came out of QC, and was trying to remember the original quote.  Got it, thanks.

[azonips]

OMG WTF

[silverfish]

Equation:

Number of albums (A) divided by two equals the comprable quality of their new material (M).

A/2=M

Wait.  By this logic, a band's 8th album (M = 4) would have comparable quality equal to 8 times their first album (M=1/2)?

Expanding a bit: the degradation in quality between successive albums increases; much further along than the sophomore effort, and you've got a band that should've packed up shop years ago.

Thus I present an alternate algebraic relationship:

Q(n) = Q(1)*H^(1-n)

where Q(n) is the quality of an album, Q(1) is the quality of album 1 (measurable independent from successive works), and n is the album number.  H is the Hipster Constant and is indicative of the degree of the observer's hipsterism.  An H-value greater than 1 defines a hipster; an H-value between 0 and 1 denotes, predictably, the hipster's polar opposite - one who values a bands newest release most highly.  (A suitable one-word epithet for such individuals was unable to be found at the time of this inquiry.)

[Shaft]

Jeph - You should totally get together with these people and develop "The indie guidebook" full of the rules of life, and hipsters. I would buy it.

[tommydski]

a hipster would spend far more time a) by his apple mac or b) with his i-pod so technically the hierarchy would be -

1 - AAC (the music format of i-pods and macs)
3 - cd-r / cd-rw (given to them by hipster biddies presumably....or handed out when they went to see the original 'metropolis' film soundtracked live by some electroclash courtesy of 'DJ OMGROFLMAO')
2 - retail cds (hipsters don't listen to vinyl....that's a myth - i listen to vinyl and i'm not a hipster. i'm a 'harmless boozer' or 'amiable drunk')
3 - dvd dolby 5.1 (re-released version of 'pet sounds' with tri-linear sound-scaping and added flashing lights for anyone who has a set of fucking disco balls attached to their tv set)
4 - Mp3 and similar formats (plucked from soulseek or bit-torrent)
and i really don't think these are very relevent but -
5 - tapes and vinyl.

please take this into account.

[Sionide]

haha the hipster constant.. good work!

[brokenbeat]

OMG WTF

i laughed so hard when i saw that one.
that conversation actually happened with me... and that's probably not a good thing.

[honest_that_way]

Yes but it is still better in 'Hip Harry Hipsters' world to own vinyl, and to have made tapes for people off these vinyls. First Press as well, ooh and white label if possible. Not that we don't all enjoy a bit of that ourselves. Oh and rare MP3s are double best trumps. OOOH we could play Hipster Top trumps. Like my limited edition rare, 200 in the world press of Stephen Malkmus' first word after he had eaten a burger on vinyl trumps your Jonny Greenwood video of a baby's digestive system set to jazz breakbeats limited edition 600.

[rynne]

What about groups that constantly get better, or at least maintain a steady quality level?

For example, how would a band like Radiohead fit into this?  I mean, when The Bends came out, it was certainly hipper (and better) than Pablo Honey, disproving rule 1).  And by rule 2), was OK Computer not hipper than The Bends until after Kid A came out?

Or did Radiohead stop being hip as soon as they released an album that was objectively better than their last album?

[Johnny C]

Okay, Rynne came upon Hipster Rule #3:

No rules apply to Radiohead except this one.

Radiohead - from what I gather - is like hipster platinum. If their music can grind across your ears without causing some kind of hemmhoragging, then you are UBERHIP.

Equation

Radiohead > God + (rule 1)

[SeanBateman]

In terms of music formats, Records are easily the hippest. There's no way you can say "man, you haven't heard the album for real until you hear it in mp3 format." I think however, the real hippest medium is an 8 track tape, just because NO body has them anymore. My friend has an 8 track player in his car, and we can't find any tapes to play in it.

Amendment to 2nd rule of hipsterism.
Bootlegs will always be considered cooler than studio releases. Any outtakes, live recordings, and the like are infinitley more hip.

Or maybe this is the third rule. Hipness of recording is inversely proportionate to scarcity of recording.

[Disko]

I don't think it matters what format they are in, it's what style, so:

Rare EP>Rare Album>Promo Album> ..some parts missing ...  >No.1 Single>Hipster Hell

Or something like that. I think mp3s just can't reach hipster coolness, as they'd have to be taken off some kind've rare bootleg tape to get the hipster types excited anyway.

[rynne]

I think “their older stuff was betterâ€? feelings has as much to do with the expectations for the albums as their actual sound.  

If you hear a new band and their sound is revelatory, you'll expect that their next album will be equally revelatory.  If their next album doesn't reach those expectations, you'll tend to feel the earlier stuff was better, even if the later stuff is not to different, quality-wise.

As far as I can see, there's a few ways to overcome this:

1) Continually improve with successive albums.  Make the quality of your albums noticably improve enough that you meet or exceed the expectations that your last one set up.  See the early parts of the careers of Bowie, U2, etc.

2) Change your sound so much between albums that previous expectations cannot be applied.  Radiohead are masters at this, see also Beck and early Bowie again.

3) Manage expectations so that your audience doesn't expect each offering to be revelatory.  If you can crank out a few excellent songs each album, while padding with good—but not great—filler, your audiences will come to expect consistantly good, but not great, albums.  See Depeche Mode, New Order, the later careers of U2 and Bowie.

A career arc starting with 1) or 2) and gently transitioning into 3) should provide a constantly hip career where “album X was better� opinions are based on personal prefence—and open to excessive hipster debate.



*Of course, there are often plenty of times where a band will only have one good album in them.

[Coyote]

See, I'm glad I read this, because quite frankly I am not entirely sure what "hipster" means and what "indie bands" are really supposed to be. It was one part of QC that kinda flew past me, always leaving me with the impression that I sorta got it...

Hmmm... maybe I shouldn'r admit that here...

Coyote detected a subtle shift in the attitude of the crowd. It was as if some turning point had been reached, a turning point so subtle in its definition that it was impossible to tell quite when it had been reached until one was already past it. A moment of tense silence hung in the air.

Suddenly the tension became electric; torches and Frankenstein rakes were produced as if from nowhere.

"Heretic!" a voice shouted, raspy with inspired fervor, "Infidel!"
"You are not of the body," a hysterical voice rang out, "Purge the unbeliever!"

"Purge... purge... purge" the crowd chanted in unison, as an unseen hand let slip the last ties of civilization and allowed the crowd to surge forward.

Biblical locust swarms knew no such fury as the frenzy of the crowd that dark Sabbath eve...

Uh... sorry... did I say that out loud?

[Johnny C]

Or maybe this is the third rule. Hipness of recording is inversely proportionate to scarcity of recording.

Fourth, actually. And here is the caveat:

If it gets put on a full-length, it is NO LONGER COOL. (see Interpol, "NARC," "A Time To Be So Small," or Wilco, "Spiders (Kidsmoke).")

[aekastar]

Sadly I think I have some hipster in me though I wasn't entirely sure.  at one point, I thought I was open to most music and went on 'sound' more than 'cool factor', but sadly, I have caught myself making mixes and being sure to put at least one rare song on there; if it's on a studio album, it is more attainable thus not as exciting.  not that many who I send mixes to really care about the rareness of a song.

I think the first sign of hipsterdom happened with radiohead, in fact  -- sometime in '99.  I purchased some bootlegs (yes, at that time, I didn't know about mp3s.. were they even invented?  I assume so, but y'know, my first recollection of an mp3 was in '00 during the napster phase) and began telling people how much BETTER these recordings were over everything.

I'd say such things as, "Wow, when Thom did 'Big Deal / Nude' during the SF '98 show and it was just Untitled, that was the best"

Of course, I think I try to keep most of this on the DL since I cannot say I'm the most hardcore person in the world.  I run across rare items by chance rather than seek them out.

I don't own any vinyl though I want a turntable :\

[Coyote]

How about a performer, or band, that starts off as a cheap ripoff of another-- I don't mean cover bands, I mean people essentially copy a idea, style, format, or concept and pass it off as their own...?

Okay, then suppose that piracy pays off and they actually do learn some talent and start doing wholly original stuff, getting more and more daring until they are making their own mark and being original?

[KharBevNor]

This is in no way as extreme as the rule that applies to underground metal. In underground metal, the bands best song is always from their garage-quality 4-track demo, sold on cheap cassettes with photocopied covers drawn in biro by the singers sister, from the back of the drummers cars after their early pub gigs in the back alleys of Stockholm , limited to only 666 copies (only less than a 100 of which were ever actually made or sold), one of which you got hold of, owned and loved LONG before the band was signed, even if logic would dicatate that you were only three at the time. Only one track, mind you. The other two were crap, or stole riffs from Blue Oyster Cult/Black Sabbath/Deep Purple*, and everything after that was far too commercial.  


*The last track on any given underground metal demo is a cover of 'Deathcrush' by Mayhem, chosen because a seven year-old with one hand could play the guitar lead. Seriously. A good comb of the internet and p2p networks could easily net you over 300 versions of this song, each progressively worse than the last.

[Rune]

So, according to this logic, assuming bands that don't exist can't be rated, one of the greatest things would be a crappy tape bootleg of your own show at a shitty club at which only maybe ten or twenty people were at during the time you were playing? Glad I have one of those, then.

And wow. My grammar is really off tonight.

[leave_me_icarus]

Okay, so I was wondering what is the heiarchy of indieness amongst types of musical recordings?

Does it go:
Records
Tapes
Cds
Mp3s

or....

Tapes
Records
Cds
Mp3s

and where do concerts fit in to this? hmmmm

dude SHOWS, not concerts. eff. [please enjoy sarcasm here]

and i've seen some of those ultra-indie kids having mp3 players so i don't know why it's at the bottom.

records are deffinately at the top though, would agree there. i think it would go:

records,
tapes,
mp3's,
cd's.

whatever...

and about the shows, if you're going to be indie at a show, you have to look as uninterested as humanly possible.
x

[Schmung]

The rarest of the rare and thus, best. The B-side of the rare single released only in outer Mongolia by the bands deluded and spectacularly useless management, the sole copy of which you bought from a guy at a car boot sale who nicked it from the only yak herder in Mogolia with a still fucntioning record player. It's actually unlistenable because the things warped so badly, but you can just about make out hte ghost of a baseline that somehow trascends everything else that was ever written, ever and is thus the cooles song on the planet.

[leave_me_icarus]

i tried so hard to understand that...
x

[Schmung]

i tried so hard to understand that...
x

Don't worry, half the time I don't understand what the fuck I'm on about either.

[witsd]

Their Old Stuff Is Always Much Better

Amount of time/material availible for first album > amount of time/material availible for later ones.

Therefore, first album > later albums.

[KharBevNor]

So, according to this logic, assuming bands that don't exist can't be rated, one of the greatest things would be a crappy tape bootleg of your own show at a shitty club at which only maybe ten or twenty people were at during the time you were playing? Glad I have one of those, then.

You're almost at the heights of awesome. All it needs now is a Japan-only bonus track.

[aekastar]

The rarest of the rare and thus, best. The B-side of the rare single released only in outer Mongolia by the bands deluded and spectacularly useless management, the sole copy of which you bought from a guy at a car boot sale who nicked it from the only yak herder in Mogolia with a still fucntioning record player. It's actually unlistenable because the things warped so badly, but you can just about make out hte ghost of a baseline that somehow trascends everything else that was ever written, ever and is thus the cooles song on the planet.

This amused me since it's SO TRUE!
on our college station over here they once said they recovered a tape from Cambodia or something and they played that.. it was insane.

[Rosier]

How about a rule like. . .

"If musicians ever leave their first band and form a second one with members of other bands from similar genres, the product will never match up to any of the original bands.  See: Jets to Brazil, The Postal Service"

As a sidenote, I prefer JTB and TPS to anything their members' original bands ever did >_>

[rynne]

How about a rule like. . .

"If musicians ever leave their first band and form a second one with members of other bands from similar genres, the product will never match up to any of the original bands.  See: Jets to Brazil, The Postal Service"

As a sidenote, I prefer JTB and TPS to anything their members' original bands ever did >_>

But Enon is at least as good as Brainiac and Blonde Redhead.

[Rosier]

How about a rule like. . .

"If musicians ever leave their first band and form a second one with members of other bands from similar genres, the product will never match up to any of the original bands.  See: Jets to Brazil, The Postal Service"

As a sidenote, I prefer JTB and TPS to anything their members' original bands ever did >_>

But Enon is at least as good as Brainiac and Blonde Redhead.

But would hipsters agree with you?

[Rune]

Oh, I'll have a Japan-only bonus track. And it'll be a terrible quality acoustic recording.

[Stefu]

I'd like to offer a corollary for the Second Rule:

If a band achieves a breakthrough and makes an experimental/return to roots album after it, that album is better than the breakthrough album, and quite possibly is the group's best album ever.

Thus, in the hipsterworld, "In Utero" is always better than "Nevermind" and "Angel Dust" is always better than "The Real Thing". Of course, one can argue that a group that breaks through at any level isn't cool for the hipster to like anymore, but, like, Radiohead.

Breaking through can be defined in many levels - thus, The Bends is better than Pablo Honey, but OK Computer is better than The Bends, but Kid A is better than OK Computer. Each is arguably more experimental than the one preceeding it, and each achieved a different level of breaking through (From "one hit wonder" to "britpop staple" to "modern classic" to "OH WOW RADIOHEAD LIKE WOW")