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[LeeC]

You see with Jaime I was hoping to see him change, showing him as total shit bag but he slowly starts changing (with the absence of his evil sister and being around noble Brienne). Even with the episode where he realizes there isnt much in the king's guard history about him, and Brienne trying to make him more honorable... But then he does this...

Haven't Seen Robert's Bastard in awhile, and its been several episodes!

[Method of Madness]

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What bugs me is that it was arguably made into a rape for the show. They did that with Drogo/Daenerys as well.

[GarandMarine]

There was a really good article about that on AV club... and it's more than a little creepy once you track on the implications.

[Schmee]

There was a really good article about that on AV club... and it's more than a little creepy once you track on the implications.

The article's here, if anyone's interested.

[J]

You see with Jaime I was hoping to see him change, showing him as total shit bag but he slowly starts changing (with the absence of his evil sister and being around noble Brienne). Even with the episode where he realizes there isnt much in the king's guard history about him, and Brienne trying to make him more honorable... But then he does this...

see, that's kind of how i feel about the whole thing. yeah, he casually murders people when it suits him, but we've seen so many people so much worse than him. and despite everything, it's the one good thing he's done in his life that everyone constantly shits all over him for.

then, when he sticks his neck on the line for brienne you start to see a different side of him. you remember that he's pretty much the only person in the world who's actually nice to tyrian. you start to think, maybe, maybe he could have been better than he is, given different circumstances. i never really liked jamie, but damned if i didn't start to feel for the guy a bit.

aaannd then he goes and rapes his grieving/psychotic sister right next to the fresh corpse of their son/nephew, seemingly just for spite.


it will be interesting to see where they go with his character from here, to say the least.

[Method of Madness]

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They fuck on his corpse in the book, but not only is it consensual, it's the first time they've seen each other since he was captured by Robb Stark. (He wasn't supposed to see Joffrey alive)

[Method of Madness]

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Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Then why have that scene at all if so much had changed?

[Valdís]

What by Hel..

The article's here, if anyone's interested.

Okay, so, she said no in the book, but was ignored and "Turns out she just didn't know she wanted it"? Ugh..

And it's a chapter written from Jaime's point of view (unlike the show), subject to the potential distortion of being the rapist's perception?

You're missing the point. Changing this scene to a rape makes even less narrative sense than changing Dany's relationship with Drogo.

Some not-so-subtle racism there, maybe? The brown man is just way more believable as a rapist, even though he specifically stops and asks if she doesn't want it to happen?

Still a super-problematic relationship that is all kinds of fucked up, but I don't really see how it's so much more believable.

[Method of Madness]

Not so much "the brown man" as "the man who had just purchased a child bride" as opposed to a decades long relationship. That being said, Drogo's change made far less sense, especially with how she still falls in love with him soon after.

[Valdís]

Right, but bride prices are common and it's not like the Westerosi have a more reasonable age of consent (Sansa at 13 to Tyrion, for instance). Of course that doesn't change that it's taking a scared, mistreated teenage girl and sending her off to marry an older man. Not at all saying it does.

But if doing the same rewrite with Tyrion, who happens to be white, ignoring Sansa's lack of consent.. Yeah. I doubt that type of comment would've been written for that.

[GarandMarine]

Cept everyone's been saying Drogo's change didn't make sense either...

[Method of Madness]

That being said, Cersei had a much worse time after being married off to Robert than Dany did to Drogo. It's why she objected so heavily to being married again.

[Valdís]

Cept everyone's been saying Drogo's change didn't make sense either...

And I was talking about this specific racist line of thought, where they just feel it makes more sense, not those other people?

[LeeC]

I think you are making race more of an issue than it really is (Honestly i wouldnt consider him brown).  I think they were trying to get across that this was a large army of brutish barbarians and they wanted to convey it with actions rather than just exposition dialog. We've seen white dudes in the series rape quite a few women (hell the Chicken scene with the Hound, that lady sure did not act like she liked the way she was being passed around, rape was definitely implied).  I am not saying its acceptable but the sad truth is this kind of thing happened back in medieval times regularly (not to say it doesnt happen at all in modern times either).  On top of that, in old timey times it was quite common for a young girl to be married off to some older man and to consummate the marriage the night of the wedding (maybe not the "bedding ceremony" we saw with the Tully wedding, but unless consummated the marriage was not considered "official") but I am pretty sure many of those young women were forced on by their husbands because they are now married and "didn't have a choice."  Its ugly and horrid (I hate when authors use rape as a plot device or story telling tool) but to ignore that it ever happened would be lying to the reader. The author and directors of this fantasy land is trying to show how dark and scarey and it is and that its not the devout knight in shining armor fantasy of King Arthur. Often times the "Hero" type will end up dead or be(come) less than honorable in this fantasy land. 

I think that's one of the appeals of the show.  Its not predictable and we can related to being in an ugly scarey world where we do not know what will happen or if we are making the right decisions.  Our leader is shit and would rather kill than help their citizens.  The only person who seems to have the best interest of the people gets thrown in jail. Family's go to war or have internal disputes. Being poor and being trampled by the rich.

[Metope]

Here's a quote from GRRM on the episode:

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"...Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons."

[LeeC]

Metope: scroll up a few posts, its already there, in a spoiler about his blog 

Having someone fall in love with their rapist is bad enough on its own.

Yeah 

[Metope]

Oops, sorry! I only saw the AV Club article, I guess I should spoiler mine too.

[Method of Madness]

Well I mean there's no reason to even have it there, it's word for word what I posted. But it's up to you.

[LeeC]

[Metope]

Ha Method, I know. I just hate it when people delete posts so that the thread doesn't make sense to people coming in later, so I'd rather just leave it.

[Method of Madness]

Fair enough.

[LeeC]

so about last night...

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So Margery starts to seduce a 14 year old boy

[Method of Madness]

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No, she's the widow of a fourteen-year-old boy. Tommen is eight (probably older in the show but it's never explicitly said, so...yeah.

Edit: According to the Game of Thrones wiki, Joffrey is nineteen when he dies, what the fuck? That can't be right.

[J]

just came across this, and it is awesome

[Edguy]

Man, episode 4 sure deviated a lot from the books. What will happen north of the wall? How will the status quo lead into the events to come? Where is Coldhands?

[Method of Madness]

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One theory is they left him out of the show because if we saw him, we'd know if he was or wasn't Benjen Stark

[Pilchard123]

Where is Coldhands?

Up the back of your shirt, making you squawk?

[Method of Madness]

Probably a good call. Or read the books

[Lines]

Luckily the major spoiler about that character is in spoiler tags, so Gareth, if you don't know who he is, don't worry about it. I haven't watched any of season 4 yet, but if the plan is to leave that character out and redo it somehow, you won't notice.

[Method of Madness]

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If you're talking about my post, it's not even a spoiler because it's pure speculation.

[Lines]

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It's speculation, but it's one that's so obvious that I think most people will be angry if it's not him.

[Edguy]

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It's obviously the first thing anyone though when we were introduced to Coldhands, but shouldn't Bran have recognized him? Even hooded or however he's described? Also, do you think he'll be introduced later? His crows are there when Sam kills the Walker, and they could do like with Meera and Jojen, and not introduce him until later, when their characters became more important. Perhaps he can show up when they are attacked by wights, near the entrance to the caves of the children of the forest? Or perhaps to free them from the mutineers? (regarding that, is it possible that Jon and Bran meet? This would deviate A LOT from the books..) Or they could abandon him completely, but who would then take the role of protecting them and escorting them to the three-eyed raven?

[Method of Madness]

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Linds - I'd honestly be more mad if Lyanna ends up not being Jon Snow's mother (which would mean Ned actually is his father, and not Rhaegar).

Edguy - To be fair, has Bran ever met Benjen? He's probably been on the Wall longer than Bran's been alive (he's what, eight in Dance?)

[Lines]

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They would have meet when Benjen visited Winterfell in the first book. Same time Jon met him.

[Method of Madness]

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Ahh right, I forgot about that. Although Bran may have been unconscious or stuck in bed when Benjen was there, so it's possible they still never met. I could be forgetting a scene where they did though.

[ChaoSera]

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Benjen was at the feast, so he could have met Bran there. Also this was obviously not the first time Benjen visited Winterfell, since Jon recognized him on the spot. Granted, we don't know if the last visit was when Bran was too little to be able to remember it, but I think we should operate under the assumption that he knows what his uncle looks like.

[Method of Madness]

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I guess maybe sort-of-dying or whatever it is to become an Other/White Walker (or whatever Coldhands is) is enough to change your appearance enough for Bran to not recognize him but not enough to cast a different actor, so everyone would know it was him.

[GarandMarine]

[LeeC]

entitled: Peter Dinklage after this episode...

[Valdís]

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"I WISH I WAS THE MONSTER YOU THINK I AM!

I WISH I HAD ENOUGH POISON FOR THE WHOLE PACK OF YOU!

I WOULD GLADLY GIVE MY LIFE TO WATCH YOU ALL SWALLOW IT!"

Ye gods.. I feel ya, Tyrion! <3

[Method of Madness]

Ramsay shouldn't be calling himself Snow. Usually I don't have problems with changes from the book, but that just doesn't work.

Edit: Just finished the episode. Gods damn, Dinklage, well done.

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Also, since Jon is still north of the wall on a new story...does that mean the Wildlings are never going to attack, which means that Ygritte won't die, which means that Jon won't become Knight Commander?

[Lines]

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Also, since Jon is still north of the wall on a new story...does that mean the Wildlings are never going to attack, which means that Ygritte won't die, which means that Jon won't become Knight Commander?

I have not caught up on the show, but in regards to your spoiler...

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what the hell are they gonna do if that doesn't happen?!

[Method of Madness]

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I don't know and that really excites me.

[Lines]

One of these days I'm going to catch up on this show. Maybe when I'm on vacation in June... Hmm...

[Method of Madness]

How far behind are you?

[Blue Kitty]

Have you planted any Easter eggs in the show?
David Peterson: One of the biggest is from Episode 3 this season. There’s a scene where the Meereenese rider is challenging Daenerys’ champion. He’s shouting and Nathalie Emmanuel [Missandei] is translating – but she’s not translating what he’s saying. He’s actually saying a Low Valyrian translation of the French guy’s insults in ‘Monty Python and the Holy Grail.’ That was [series creator] Dan Weiss’s idea and it was so hilarious that I had to do it.

Have fans caught on?
David Peterson: They know that something’s going on. Right after that episode aired, I was getting tweets like, “Is he saying a ‘your momma’ joke?” Close… But no, he’s actually starting out with, “Your mother is a hamster.”  (x)

[Torlek]

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Also, since Jon is still north of the wall on a new story...does that mean the Wildlings are never going to attack, which means that Ygritte won't die, which means that Jon won't become Knight Commander?

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They've pretty much wrapped up the new story and that party should be well on their way back to Castle Black (I also got the notion that Craster's wives are going to be the ones that start the group that heads to Hardhome and one of them will be Mother Mole). Figure the wildling attack from the South will occur in episode 7 or 8, then Mance will attack in episode 9 (since it's titled 'The Watchers on the Wall') and Jon will be elected Lord Commander in episode 10. I had been thinking that episode 9 would be mostly lead up to Tywin's death with that being the big "oh shit" moment at the end of the episode. However given that title they may have the battle at the Wall take up the entire episode. So episode 10 may have multiple HUGE moments (Tywin's death, the reveal of Lady Stoneheart and maybe the reveal of the Children).

[Method of Madness]

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Don't forget Lysa's death in episode 10. I forget if I already asked this though, but who the hell are they going to frame for it?

[Lines]

How far behind are you?

I've only watched through season 2. I'm pretty behind on the show. But I've read all of the books, so it's not like I'm missing out entirely.

[Torlek]

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Don't forget Lysa's death in episode 10. I forget if I already asked this though, but who the hell are they going to frame for it?

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Judging by the preview for episode 7 it looks like Lysa is going to fly next week. No idea who Littlefinger is going to frame though.