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Author Topic: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion  (Read 12301 times)

GarandMarine

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Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« on: 03 Sep 2014, 00:42 »

Is it hypocritical of the Huffington Post to be decrying the recent leak of a big pile of celeb nude photos as "sexual assault"* and damning the objectification of women and the invasion of privacy of celebrities while at the same time on their own front page having at least six articles that objectify women and celebrities including bikini paparazzi photos and a NSFW photo of a nipple slip on the runway at fashion week?

*I find the appellation of this particular crime to this case kinda hyperbolic.  I am no way approving of or absolving the various hackers who have been amassing these photos over the years through alleged deep web trading sites**, or the anon who leaked them. They have absolutely violated these ladies privacy in a very real and brutal way. I'm just not sure I'd call it sexual assault. Which has it's own definition that doesn't involve the intertubes.

**That's what happened according to reddit, seems like the most likely scenario to me, a leak this size being the results of many different hackers over time as opposed to one anon last tuesday who was the god king of all hackers or some stupid shit like that.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #1 on: 03 Sep 2014, 02:41 »

Newspapers are hypocritical. Many years ago, a Chris Morris-penned satire on paedophilia called Paedogeddon aired over here, and two of the tabloids called it sick filth that should be banned from the airwaves - one of them across the page from photographs of two prepubescent teenagers in bikinis on the beach, the other one across the page from a photo of a 15-year-old Charlotte Church with the caption 'she's a big girl now.'
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BeoPuppy

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #2 on: 03 Sep 2014, 02:54 »

So ... anyone seen the pictures?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #3 on: 03 Sep 2014, 03:06 »

Are you really asking whether anyone has actively sought out illegally-obtained photos of naked women?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #4 on: 03 Sep 2014, 03:14 »

Yes. I'm honestly interested if anyone has come across them, whether they clicked them away furiously, how they feel about the leak, how they feel about the whole situation.

Because I cannot quite get my head around it. Specifically, I can't figure out who to blame, who should be prosecuted, how to feel about it ...
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #5 on: 03 Sep 2014, 03:42 »

Who's to blame?

That's quite easy to me. There's no legal obligation on a person to rigourously protect their private information. As long as you take reasonable measures to not make it directly public facing then that is, or should be, sufficient personal protection in the eyes of the law.  Consider if you were to leave your home forgetting to lock your door, that wouldn't be license for any persons to enter your home, pick up a photo album and fap all over the contents. That which applies at home necessarily applies online.
Apple have undertaken a review and determined that the leaks aren't due to a security failure. This should probably be independantly reviewed but any failure on their part would likely be a civil, not criminal matter. However, until proven otherwise we should presume them to be innocent of blame.
That pretty much puts the blame in the first instance on the shoulders of the hacker or hackers. Regardless of any failings that may have been perpetrated by Apple, they have purposely acted with the intention of invading your privacy. In the second instance, any person making benefit of the first crime is also to blame. Moving on from example above, if said person were to carry your photo album out of your unlocked house and present it to your neighbours, would you imagine it alright for them to see this alone as a justification to also have a good look and fap all over the contents? The internet makes everyone your neighbour and it's still just as wrong.

OK, I'm not going to argue for everyone who has sought out the pictures although they all really do deserve it. The hackers should be prosecuted and defintely the owners and/or adminstrators any website wilfully hosting the images.
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GarandMarine

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #6 on: 03 Sep 2014, 07:17 »

Saying all of the blame isn't on the shoulders of the hackers is just useless wittering. For all other parties, especially when you consider most sites hosting the content, if not all of them, are places that don't and can't monitor user uploads outside of community self policing and specific DMCA take downs. For example the various "blind" file sharing sites like megaupload.

To use your photobook example for regular users,  if someone steals your photo album from your home, and posts the photos on a public bulletin board, is everyone who walks past it liable? Even if someone hears about it and goes for a look?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #7 on: 03 Sep 2014, 07:40 »

I don't think that people who wander past are as culpable as the people who put the pictures on the pinboard. The people who go deliberately to see them are being pretty unethical, but a more accurate analogy would be that people went specifically to see the photos, and then copied them either to keep at home or to give out to their friends.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #8 on: 03 Sep 2014, 07:50 »

But didn't the people who walked past profit from the crime?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #9 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:04 »

I'm aware that the suggestion is entirely toothless.
Would I still hold hoster's liable though? Yes, if you elect to run an unchecked or uncheckable platform then it's a risk that you should be accepting that you're potentially abetting the criminal activity of the original hacker's and second party sharers. It falls short ethically and I'm not comfortable with the passive social tolerance of this.
People looking specifically for the content? I'd like to but I know you can't. Ultimately we're casually tolerating people wilfully invading someone's privacy. Maybe it's a sign of my slide into middle age but I'm not sure why society is prepared to accept this behaviour.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #10 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:10 »

I think it's not so much that society accepts the behavior but rather that it's difficult to enforce laws against that behavior. For the analogy listed earlier about locking one's front door, I'd say the internet is more like a really bad crime-ridden neighborhood rather than some ordinary suburb. If you don't lock your car in the bad neighborhood, you can expect it will be stolen. Does that excuse the people who do it? No, but it still means you don't leave your car unlocked.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #11 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:20 »

That's verging dangerously into the realm of victim blaming.
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BeoPuppy

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #12 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:34 »

I've had the victim blaming response as well: if you want to make a living in the public eye, you shouldn't be surprised that the public eye wanders into your private live ...

But then I stop myself and think that this would deny some basic rights I have to these ladies.

Still, I feel that if I were in their position I'd ... buy a bigger lock on my front door? Be more careful?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #13 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:48 »

I've split off this discussion from the miscellaneous musings thread because it got a bit less misc and a bit more discuss, but it's in Chatter because I didn't want to block the person who started the discussion, GM, from being able to participate! Please try to follow the Discuss rules regardless of the thread's location.

I'm not sure I would say that the people who walked past profited from the crime. Personally, whilst I'm very much in favour of the female body I wouldn't enjoy seeing naked photos of women I didn't know, in the knowledge that they hadn't wanted me to see those photos. Frankly I don't particularly like seeing the semi-naked photos that The Sun newspaper STILL insists on having on page three (and often also on the cover) because of the context of those photos. It's a lot more complex, in my view, than "yay boobies!".
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #14 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:50 »

This isn't just the public eye wandering into your private life though is it. It's the public eye breaking into your home with a crowbar and hanging your private life from every available lamppost. The material was placed in a location touted as secure by a credible organisation. Blaming the victim when they have a reasonable expectation of security, regardless of  their social standing is still victim blaming.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #15 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:51 »

Apologies, I responded to the other thread while you modded. Was about to suggest a thread split as well.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #16 on: 03 Sep 2014, 08:54 »

Sor'ed, as they say in London.
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GarandMarine

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #17 on: 03 Sep 2014, 09:36 »

Now let's not get too hasty here kids. The blame is SQUARELY on one set of collective shoulders. The hackers who over the course of what had to be a significant amount of time acquired these images, and the original distributor. While we can say that the actresses and actors in question probably should have been a bit more security minded, that doesn't make them at fault. It's certainly a smart idea when you know these scrubs will probably be after you.

Next when it comes to our theoretical passers by, let's be VERY clear. Morally reprehensible and legally culpable are very different things. No one's saying these passerby aren't morally reprehensible to some extent or another, but that doesn't and shouldn't mean they're culpable before the law. Saying it should be so is a VERY slippery slope that we really don't want to slide down.

Example, I think HuffPo's intellectual dissonance on objectification and privacy issues is down right disgusting. It's morally reprehensible in the extreme. While I wouldn't mind seeing Arianna Huffington and her organization up for some sort of charges (polluting maybe :P ) that paper being scummy is no ACTUAL reason to prosecute them or pursue them civilly. They're just assholes. In the end I'd rather err on the side of assholes being assholes without jail time then start down the road towards actual thought crime.
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BeoPuppy

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #18 on: 03 Sep 2014, 09:52 »

If you benefit from a crime then you are part responsible for that crime, right?

I know 'benefit' is maybe a weird translation of 'acquire new pics to pleasure yourself over' ...
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #19 on: 03 Sep 2014, 09:55 »

If a rich person dies after being run over by a drunk driver, the people who inherit their money aren't at fault.  Benefiting from your own crime is different from benefiting from someone else's crime.

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #20 on: 03 Sep 2014, 09:57 »

Really? So I can safely take possession of stolen blue ray players?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #21 on: 03 Sep 2014, 10:02 »

There's a specific law for that. 

GarandMarine

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #22 on: 03 Sep 2014, 10:07 »

If you benefit from a crime then you are part responsible for that crime, right?

If you abett a crime you are part responsible. So the distributors are.

The equivalent here would be a blue ray player you pick up on the side of the road.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #23 on: 03 Sep 2014, 10:09 »

Even if you actively seek those pictures out?
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #24 on: 03 Sep 2014, 10:25 »

"Dog! Free blue ray players on the side of the road, you want one?"

*shrug* like I said, this is a grey area. Hell even receipt of stolen goods is a grey area in the United States. There's a dozen or so laws that probably cover that and try to establish various types and standards of culpability.

In traditional law though, establishing a criminal act is fairly simple. In short, Person X precipitates an act with a negative effect on Person Y. Stealing their blue ray player, stealing nude photos and posting them online, whatever. So we have the "act" the conscious action against Y that X can then be held civilly or criminally liable for. So if you receive or view said photos in ANY context, we have to then make a case for criminal or civil liability. Is the damage done via the viewing of the photos? Or their theft? Both? Some further fourth condition that we really haven't considered or discussed in this group? Someone sent me on of the Kate Upton photos. I deleted it. Am I criminally liable? I received stolen goods. That's the act. It doesn't really matter what I did with the goods if that's what we want to establish as a standard. We're seeing echoes of the debate that's been going on with teenagers "sexting" and the very real fact that that is child pornography, both creation, distribution and possession.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #25 on: 03 Sep 2014, 11:01 »

The problem with trying to say "people who benefit from seeing these photos" is that it's a very subjective thing. I might see them by mistake (someone sends me them in an email, for instance, and they load without me knowing what they were) and I wouldn't feel I'd benefited from it, whereas someone else might get the same email and enjoy seeing the photos. It wouldn't be fair for us to be legally differentiated as we've done the same thing, but by your definition we should be.

You can't help what happens to you by accident. The receipt of stolen goods laws, at least in the UK, have a hefty dose of "if you should have known, then you are deemed to have known" - for instance, if I buy a TV for £400 from a second-hand electronics store that hasn't got a reputation for being sketchy, and it turns out to be stolen, I'd be in a very different position than if I bought a TV for £40 from a guy in the street. The "man on the Clapham omnibus" would know that you can't get a TV for £40 without something dubious going on, and therefore I should also have known that.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #26 on: 03 Sep 2014, 11:39 »

I am just going to place this here instead of the pointless thread.



























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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #27 on: 03 Sep 2014, 12:08 »

To some extent HurrPo's being a little hypocritical, but only to a small extent, unless they've been posting illegally obtained nude private photos of celebs against their wishes.

I'm trying to figure out if the appropriate comparison is to downloading pirated music/movies/books/software, or to pictures of sexual assaults eg. on minors. I think it's closer to the former with an added element of being not just a little skeevy.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #28 on: 03 Sep 2014, 13:00 »

I'm calling bullshit, LeeC. I don't buy that celebrities are role models and even if they are, none of the people who images were stolen did anything to be ashamed of. Just because you don't want everyone to see you do something, that doesn't be it is something you are not proud of. I also don't buy that taking a picture inherently comes with the expectation that it will be released to the public.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #29 on: 03 Sep 2014, 13:17 »

I agree completely. I was trying to figure out what I felt was off about that and sitnspin has nailed it. There's nothing wrong with having naked photos of yourself, or giving them to someone who you trust. There is absolutely something wrong with hacking into private files in order to steal naked photos of someone else and giving them to anyone who wants them.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #30 on: 03 Sep 2014, 13:49 »

dont confuse my post with my side of the argument, just found it interesting and though it best serve here than the pointless thread.  :-P

honestly its a weird subject for me.  On the one hand you can say "Don't take nude selfies, else your phone/tablet may get hacked and they show up everywhere on the internet" which is fine and safe for sure, but it sounds awfully close to saying women should not dress provocatively to prevent rape.  The victim is just that, the victim. It is not their fault some ass hat violated them.  Does that mean to prevent my car to be stolen I should not own a car to be stolen?  I should not give a criminal the opportunity?  Though limiting risk in important for survival, like dont poke a lion in the butt with a stick and instead avoiding said lion, this is a completely different lion.

I think some people think that getting hack is the same as actually posting your nude selfie on the internet.  If someone posted a nude selfie of them-self on the internet then I honestly don't have any remorse.  The internet is a place where things stick and is near impossible to completely scrap stuff out of it.  Getting hacked on the other hand means someone violate a private piece of equipment or account to get data (or in this case pictures).  Now I can see Vincent's argument about that fact that the person is a celeb which means some hackers may target her because of her fame, and the fact that there are some fucked up people out there that would do it is not preventable unless you abstain from taking nude pictures.  It makes logical sense but then again as stated above its pretty fucked up.

my stance: take nude pics or don't.  Personally I will not but if someone else does then that is there business.  If they get hacked, well the hacker should be tracked down and persecuted.  The sad truth is it'll be stuck in the interwebz unless people who acknowledge that this is a breach of privacy stop uploading and sharing the pictures, instead reporting those who have.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #31 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:06 »

 The victims in this case had their images on a server that was protected by security, that security was breached by a criminal. They had a reasonable expectation that their property would be secure. The argument being made in the image, and by plenty of people, is exactly like saying "Don't own anything, even if keep it licked in your house, and it won't get stolen."
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #32 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:08 »

Actually it might be better represented as "If you live in an area where you might find yourself a target of theft, don't leave the diamonds out"
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #33 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:11 »

Except, they didn't "leave the diamonds out" someone broke in and stole them.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #34 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:11 »

Getting back to this Hufflepuff business...

It's not exploitation when a woman like Ariana Huffington does it, it's empowerment!  Stupid?  Yes, but still a valid excuse.

I don't see any problem without seeking out the pictures.  If someone offers you a ride in a stolen car, the car isn't any more stolen just because you got in.

Nothing is secure on the internet.  One has to be foolish to think otherwise.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #35 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:14 »

Nothing is secure anywhere.
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Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #36 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:23 »

Getting back to this Hufflepuff business...

It's not exploitation when a woman like Ariana Huffington does it, it's empowerment!  Stupid?  Yes, but still a valid excuse.

Gonna push pause right there. Since when does one woman objectifying other women put the power in the hands of all women? I'm all for letting women dictate what happens to their bodies but I have a hard time understanding what makes it okay for women to turn around and objectify each other for personal gain. It sounds self-serving and purpose-defeating.


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Patrick

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #37 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:25 »

I'll qualify that by saying I'd rather a woman make that call than a man, but still...


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TheEvilDog

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #38 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:39 »

One would imagine that given the frequency of these phones and accounts being hacked, that people would act to ensure this doesn't happen. Evidently it's not, as seen with this hacking.

Who is to blame for this? We can't really blame the victims, that's a bit like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. However, we can blame the hackers and the distributors, they're the ones who hacked these phones and they're the ones making money from this. Now, like I said, blaming the victims is pointless, but you can't help but feel that a modicum of common sense could have prevented this. Even someone could have just said to themselves "Yeah, I'd like X to see this picture, but would I want it being plastered over the internet?" Which kind of leads into my next point.

On the one hand, all they can do right now is damage control. On the other, however, to use that tired cliché, there's no such thing as bad publicity, especially in the digital age. People are going to use search engines, they're going to talk about the various celebrities, this is raising interest for any given victim of the phone hacking. The smarter ones are going to give interviews about how livid they are, they're going to go on talk shows to discuss how they felt. A lot of them are going to come out of this smelling like roses.

I do want to say however, that I find the whole thing distasteful and a huge invasion of privacy.
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Patrick

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #39 on: 03 Sep 2014, 19:48 »

Given JLaw's track record I think it's safe to say she could go around kicking puppies for a year and people would still adore her.


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GarandMarine

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #40 on: 03 Sep 2014, 20:16 »

Except, they didn't "leave the diamonds out" someone broke in and stole them.

Sit and spin. If you leave you diamonds out on top of your bed and someone breaks in, are they going to take them? If you have them locked up in a safe or hidden somewhere like a shoebox (i.e. secure encrypted storage or not on the cloud and other places that are relatively easy to hack or illegally access) someone might STILL break in, but they won't necessarily get your diamonds.

Getting back to this Hufflepuff business...

It's not exploitation when a woman like Ariana Huffington does it, it's empowerment!  Stupid?  Yes, but still a valid excuse.

Gonna push pause right there. Since when does one woman objectifying other women put the power in the hands of all women? I'm all for letting women dictate what happens to their bodies but I have a hard time understanding what makes it okay for women to turn around and objectify each other for personal gain. It sounds self-serving and purpose-defeating.

Pat I am 97% certain that Mustang was being sarcastic and that was in fact his point.

A lot of them are going to come out of this smelling like roses.

I honestly don't see how any of them are going to be remotely negatively affected regarding their careers. It might actually provide a small boost to some of the more B/C list starlets and models if they play their cards right and have a decent publicist.

Criminal liability aside, I liked this article's take on the whole thing:
http://www.sixpackabs.com/why-i-dont-want-to-see-jennifer-lawrence-naked/

Edit: And Stephen Colbert has joined me into laying into Huffington Post with a baseball bat with nails in it.

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/7ohwx8/celebrity-nude-photo-scandal?xrs=synd_facebook_090314_cn_45
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2014, 00:28 by GarandMarine »
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #41 on: 04 Sep 2014, 01:47 »

Another rather depressing dimension to this came up yesterday with kids going back to school. Perhaps unsurprisingly, teenagers also use their phones to take pictures and end up with them getting hacked and shared around without their permission. With this being a prominent recent event involving people that teenagers are likely to follow and idolize, this has raked over all of the horrors and anxieties of when their own privacy was invaded. Just to turn the knife in the wound, it's also prompting another round of resharing. All the people in the media and on the internet harping on about how the celebrities should have taken better security measures with their material is just heaping onto the teenager's anxieties of self-blame and being vulnerable to further exposure and humiliation.

Of course in this brave new world, some school counsellors and childrens services workers are feeling rather ill-equipped to deal with this new challenge and how to provide meaningful support and advice leaving them feel inadequate as well. Another lovely little spike in stress levels, poor school attendance and educational issues.
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Thrillho

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #42 on: 04 Sep 2014, 06:26 »

I think this is a combination of what is morally right vs. what is reasonably expected.

If you're a celebrity, people will try to hack your shit. It's not a victim's fault for them being hacked, at all. But you have to have a reasonable expectation that this shit may get stolen. That is, sadly, the world we live in, because the paparazzi are fucking horrible and people are fucking horrible. It is a horrible thing to happen that no one should have to endure, but sadly that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen or doesn't happen.

That doesn't make it the victim's fault, at all. I am just not even the slightest bit surprised that it's happened, and I hope that these hackers get fucking screwed to the wall for it (you know, if this was actually a hacking occurrence). I'd like to think that society's actual attitude may be changed somehow by this having happened so that it's not considered the norm or even expected that celebrity nudes will leak.

Amusingly, 'Come Undone' by Robbie Williams has just started playing on my shuffled playlist, which is largely about the love/hate relationship celebrities have with the press.
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sitnspin

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #43 on: 04 Sep 2014, 08:44 »

There is more that telecom companies could do to increase security, not just for celebrities but for everyone.

Personally, I don't have pictures of myself anywhere online or even on a computer. Partly because I'm paranoid as f**k and partly because I am a borderline Luddite.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #44 on: 04 Sep 2014, 10:15 »

What is this magic that allows me to communicate with others in distant and terrible lands? Devilry! Devilry, I say!

:P
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Patrick

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #45 on: 04 Sep 2014, 10:33 »

This is the internet, you're allowed to cuss. Cusses are okay.


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GarandMarine

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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #46 on: 04 Sep 2014, 12:09 »

There is more that telecom companies could do to increase security, not just for celebrities but for everyone.

Like what exactly? And how can they do it in a manner that won't unduly monitor or restrict web traffic? Personally I hold individuals responsible for securing their own goods and property, both in real life and in cyber space. You are a grown adult, take care of your shit instead of expecting someone to do it for you. (Not directed at you, just the universe in general)
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #47 on: 04 Sep 2014, 12:50 »

I'm not a tech person, I don't know the specifics of cyber security. I was imagining along the lines of better encryption and the like. If the accounts are being hacked, obviously there's a security shortcoming somewhere. Part of securing your own shit, as you put it, involves dealing with companies that handle your data Part of their job is to keep your data secure, living up to their end of the business relationship is not asking too much.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #48 on: 04 Sep 2014, 14:35 »

i've said it before and i'll say it again: people who use facebook, cloud storage, etc. need to stop pretending they give a fuck about their privy.
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Re: Hacked/leaked nude photos discussion
« Reply #49 on: 04 Sep 2014, 14:50 »

People who use these new-fangled diaries and letters should stop claiming they care about their privacy. Obviously someone's going to steal them.

Privacy isn't about allowing nobody access to your stuff. It's about being in control of who accesses it. I'll grant that Facebook is a little dodgy on that, but 'cloud storage'? If I have a set of servers connected to the Internet (there's a couple of other things as well, and it could be argued that the Internet isn't required) that I store stuff on, that's cloud storage.

Unless you meant 'toilet'. Then I don't have anything to say, since I don't really know how this is connected to plumbing.
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