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Heavyweight boxer

7 (11.9%)

Heir to the family business

6 (10.2%)

Teaching Mandarin in Africa

6 (10.2%)

Investment banker

5 (8.5%)

Pro wrestler

7 (11.9%)

Longshoreman

5 (8.5%)

Artillery officer

8 (13.6%)

Motivational speaker

8 (13.6%)

Suffering sulfur succotash

7 (11.9%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: 15 Sep 2014, 13:46

[Method of Madness]

I think Tai would be more direct.

[ASB84]

Sounds like gentle ribbing to me, especially given the way Marten was hired in the first place.

[hedgie]

And the comic after that one shows that "Smif" is canonical.

[Method of Madness]

Oh. Ok, so that sign in 691 was probably a mistake then.

[Stoon]

Doesn't anyone bother reading my posts?

Just do a web search for Smif College or go to Wikipedia and type in Smif and see for yourselves.

[ysth]

"her" day off.

OTOH:

Someone who...is trying to eliminate gender-laden pronouns from their speech altogether can try to rely on the word "they", but they will find themself in quite a pickle as soon as they try to use any reflexive verbal construction such as "the writer will paint themselves into a corner", and what's worse is that no matter how this person tries, they'll find that they can't extricate themselves gracefully, and consequently he or she will just flail around, making his or her sentence so awkward that s/he wis/hes s/he had never become conscious of these issues of sexism.  Obviously, using "they" just carries you from the frying pan into the fire, as you have merely exchanged a male-female ambiguity for a singular-plural ambiguity.  The only advantage to this ploy is, I suppose, that there is/are, to my knowledge, no group(s) actively struggling for equality between singular and plural. - D. Hofstadter

[GarandMarine]

Claire is a woman who identifies as female, and prefers to be spoken of using female pronouns. So what's your point?


In other news I investigated my local library. It's devoid of cute redheads so far. My hopes and dreams aren't shattered, but they are fragmenting.

[Near Lurker]

"her" day off.

OTOH:

Someone who...is trying to eliminate gender-laden pronouns from their speech altogether can try to rely on the word "they", but they will find themself in quite a pickle as soon as they try to use any reflexive verbal construction such as "the writer will paint themselves into a corner", and what's worse is that no matter how this person tries, they'll find that they can't extricate themselves gracefully, and consequently he or she will just flail around, making his or her sentence so awkward that s/he wis/hes s/he had never become conscious of these issues of sexism.  Obviously, using "they" just carries you from the frying pan into the fire, as you have merely exchanged a male-female ambiguity for a singular-plural ambiguity.  The only advantage to this ploy is, I suppose, that there is/are, to my knowledge, no group(s) actively struggling for equality between singular and plural. - D. Hofstadter

I think Marten would be annoyed at being called "her."

I don't think Marten saying "Smif" in 692 should be taken as evidence.  He's just sort of used to the joke, like with "Wistah."

[mikmaxs]

Right next to each other, I immediately assumed Claire was washed out before I realized oh, wait, she's a slightly lighter but almost identical color scheme to Tai. Her hair is the same color but a bit lighter, her skin is the same color but a bit lighter, her glasses are a light pink instead of black... The eyes are just different colors (Though Claire's are lighter) and the shirts are different, but she just looks really pale and that was funny to me.

[neurocase]

"her" day off.

I think Tai used the plural "their" because she was referring collectively to the other interns/Momo, who presumably have the day off given that they aren't present, rather than just Claire specifically. If Gabby and Claire have the day off, it is their day off. Ergo if one of them shows up regardless (As Claire did), referring then to "people here on their day off" refers not only to the present party, but the absent one, also. Q.E.D

It's a bit of a fumbling turn of phrase if you think about it, but hey, Tai's probably baked anyhow.

[Rghfrgl]

That's some pretty normal speech on Tai's part. And she doesn't know anyway(I used to think she might in my headcanon, being Claire's boss, but at one point I think the comic contradicted that) so she wouldn't have a reason to force that kind of speech.

If it is bad grammar, which I don't THINK it is, but if it is then it's normal everyday bad grammar.

[Loki]

Or she is, for some reason, used talking to and about nonbinary people, so she uses the turn of phrase automatically, even when she doesn't have reason to assume she is talking to a nonbinary person.

Or it's local slang.

Or, yeah, what neurocase explained.

[ysth]

If it is bad grammar, which I don't THINK it is, but if it is then it's normal everyday bad grammar.

It is, and it is.

It's still painful to read.

[Kugai]

[hakko504]

Claire FTW!

[NilsO]

I know a couple of people like Claire. They just love their jobs so much that they spend most of their wake hours there, without getting extra pay, and without having a huge load of work that must be finished before the deadline.

Regarding Tai's dream job: I guess she would like to write something like "Fifty Shades of Grey", become famous, and earn a shitload of money. However, Tai is also quite realistic, and knows too well that this is not going to happen. Therefore, she is happy with the job she has, and is not worrying about it. The erotica she is writing is just a hobby for her.

Marten, on the other hand, dreams about becoming a rock star (or, at least, playing in a reasonably good band). But he is not as realistic as Tai, and is still believing in his dream. Therefore, he is not too happy with his job at the library, always wanting to do something else for a living.

[Barmymoo]

I say "their" to refer to an individual without any particular motivation to disguise their gender, but simply because their gender often isn't relevant. It's not bad grammar; rules shift over time.

[bhtooefr]

There's also the clunkier use of "one" as a singular animate gender-neutral pronoun. But, it would feel really, really clunky in Tai's sentence.

[Akima]

If it is bad grammar, which I don't THINK it is, but if it is then it's normal everyday bad grammar.

It is sad to see people still whining about the singular use of "their". It is not a new thing. Shakespeare used it, and so did Jane Austen. Presumably the historically-myopic grammar-police think they know better.

Jobs you take, for example for urgent financial reasons, that are not your dream job, can turn into one. Your own attitude is the key.

[snubnose]

Whow, I caused quite a lot of answers !

Yes, if it risked making the whole relationship awkward.

Yes, right.

But ... but ... cute lady butt !!! *awwwww*

Wouldn't it be a potential sexual harassment situation?

How so ?!? She offered.

I do not get such offers, so I don't really know.

Well ... neither do I.

They gave me a temporary full time position, but no one bothered to tell me.

LOL

[NilsO]

If it is bad grammar, which I don't THINK it is, but if it is then it's normal everyday bad grammar.

It is sad to see people still whining about the singular use of "their". It is not a new thing. Shakespeare used it, and so did Jane Austen. Presumably the historically-myopic grammar-police think they know better.

Please, do not turn this discussion into grammar details. I would like to point out that there are several variants of English. Regional differences and slang often cause misunderstandings. Also, several of the Forum participants (myself included) do not have English as their native language. All languages change over time and across regions or social groups. There are no universal truths in grammar.

[LackOfGrace]

Me associating with Marten has risen me from the deep lurk swamp.
Impostor syndrome is no fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

[Lubricus]

Maybe Tai is just being "protective" of Marten.  I've had people from friends to cow-orkers, to exes try to "protect" me from people they didn't think would make a good fit.

Tai has tried to push Marten towards (at least one of) the interns before, so I doubt she would try to hinder any such development. It wouldn't fit well with her character, I think. She'd probably love to see Claire come on to Marten, even if it just resulted in getting to see a flustered Marten.

[bhtooefr]

Wouldn't it be a potential sexual harassment situation?

How so ?!? She offered.

Which means that she's the one potentially sexually harassing Marten.

[SuctionCup Caper Two]

Wouldn't it be a potential sexual harassment situation?

How so ?!? She offered.
[/quote]




Sexual Harassment policies and laws are not designed to be fair and logical.   They are designed to "protect women" by punishing men.    Often by terminating said man without an investigation.   Many many women have taken advantage of such ambiguity over the years to wreck entire companies and destroy the careers of men for no reason...  far more than the number of women actually protected from legit harassment.   

Can't change the laws or rewrite policy,  because then you are anti-women-rights and a hater.   

(IICIH speaking. I have sent this person a PM asking if he or she is Million Dollar Belt Sander.)

[Lubricus]

Sexual harassment is NOT simply about men abusing women - it's about any kind of unwanted sexual attention, regardless of the gender of both the haresser and the victim.

[cesium133]

OTOH:

Someone who...is trying to eliminate gender-laden pronouns from their speech altogether can try to rely on the word "they", but they will find themself in quite a pickle as soon as they try to use any reflexive verbal construction such as "the writer will paint themselves into a corner", and what's worse is that no matter how this person tries, they'll find that they can't extricate themselves gracefully, and consequently he or she will just flail around, making his or her sentence so awkward that s/he wis/hes s/he had never become conscious of these issues of sexism.  Obviously, using "they" just carries you from the frying pan into the fire, as you have merely exchanged a male-female ambiguity for a singular-plural ambiguity.  The only advantage to this ploy is, I suppose, that there is/are, to my knowledge, no group(s) actively struggling for equality between singular and plural. - D. Hofstadter

What's wrong with some singular-plural ambiguity? English already has that in the second-person pronoun "you" (which originally was a plural that had a double usage as a formal singular.)

[Zebediah]

OK, let me summarize: The problem is that English has no distinct singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. The old rule of using the masculine pronoun for a gender-indeterminate pronoun is no longer acceptable to many people. Various people have proposed new pronouns as solutions to this, but none of them have caught on. Meanwhile, many English speakers have chosen to solve this problem by adopting the plural "they" as a singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. This practice is becoming so widespread that efforts by traditionalist grammarians to stop it are probably doomed to failure.

In short, Tai spoke in this comic the way lots of people actually speak. Whether it is grammatically correct or not is beside the point.

[cesium133]

OK, let me summarize: The problem is that English has no distinct singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. The old rule of using the masculine pronoun for a gender-indeterminate pronoun is no longer acceptable to many people. Various people have proposed new pronouns as solutions to this, but none of them have caught on. Meanwhile, many English speakers have chosen to solve this problem by adopting the plural "they" as a singular gender-indeterminate pronoun. This practice is becoming so widespread that efforts by traditionalist grammarians to stop it are probably doomed to failure.

In short, Tai spoke in this comic the way lots of people actually speak. Whether it is grammatically correct or not is beside the point.

Yes, I know. I'm arguing that there's nothing wrong with this practice.

[Zebediah]

I wasn't implying that there was anything wrong with it - quite the opposite, in fact. My post was in response to the entire thread.

[cesium133]

Ah, okay. I thought you were directly replying to me.

[TheEvilDog]

Simply put, languages are constantly evolving. We're just seeing an example of that here.
For a similar change, check out how "Thou" and "you" have changed over the years.

[Thrudd]

It is sad to see people still whining about the singular use of "their". It is not a new thing. Shakespeare used it, and so did Jane Austen. Presumably the historically-myopic grammar-police think they know better.

(click to show/hide)

Sorry.
Or maybe not.
Sorry about that, eh.WRT to the evolution of Language, Grammarians [Aliens from the planet Gram?] try and wrest control like they seem to do on a continuing basis with official French, but English makes wrestling with a vat full of assorted Octopodes seem tame and less hazardous in comparison.

[themacnut]

Heh. You think there are issues referring to the gender of someone trans* like Claire now, just wait 'til medical knowledge and tech advances to the point where the average person can change their gender at will, or even become both genders or NO gender without medical or psychological problems. The old "he/she" will fail utterly to describe such people, a whole new set of pronouns will have to be invented. And I haven't even talked about AIs who get tired of being called "it"....

[DSL]

I use to be a paid grammar cop, and had no problem with insisting paid professional communicators be conversant with and adept in the rules regarding the use of the primary tool of their trade. I would, however, countenance bending the rules for clarity's sake, necessary a depressing number of times in English. One thing I wouldn't mind living to see is the evolution of a set of gender-neutral pronouns that are as acceptable to grammar cops as they are accepted by the majority of language users. Various attempts to "impose" pronouns by this or that advocate have come across as thought-control attempts. My money is in the various forms of "they" gaining dictionary acceptance as neutral personal pronouns.

[Sidhekin]

Various attempts to "impose" pronouns by this or that advocate have come across as thought-control attempts.

For "this or that advocate" I read "advocates on either side", and with that proviso, I concur.

Frequently I find myself wondering why champions of tolerance should be so intolerant of another's mother tongue.  Pushes my buttons, that does.  But beyond those buttons, I really see no compelling case for prescriptivism either way:  As long as we understand one another, there's no need to correct anyone's language.

[Barmymoo]

Heh. You think there are issues referring to the gender of someone trans* like Claire now

There are no issues referring to the gender of someone like Claire. She's female. You use female pronouns.

[Kugai]

One speaks as one does one.

[Is it cold in here?]

Heh. You think there are issues referring to the gender of someone trans* like Claire now

There are no issues referring to the gender of someone like Claire. She's female. You use female pronouns.

The day there are no issues, we'll no longer need the forum rule requiring people to use the right pronoun for trans* people.

[Akima]

(IICIH speaking. I have sent this person a PM asking if he or she is Million Dollar Belt Sander.)

That was my first thought on reading that bucket of misogynistic dirty water.

[bhtooefr]

I suspected it a couple posts ago, that post is what triggered me to report it.

[DSL]

As long as we understand one another, there's no need to correct anyone's language.

I find the language correction is most frequently used to derail someone else's train of thought, attempting to neutralize that person without actually having to counter whatever argument they're making. I've come to believe that, in truly civilized conversation, the proper response to any statement that begins: "So, what you're really saying is ..." is a Taser shot.

[TheEvilDog]

Hmmm, drinks plus on-going storyline involving several main characters which might have long lasting consequences for said characters.

Nothing can go wrong here!

[Kugai]

That's what Jeremy Clarkson said.

[DSL]

Aw, Claire ... if you were a real person and not a cartoon, I'd have a heart-to-heart with ya about how staying late and coming in on your day off leads only to declining physical and mental health and diminished respect from your co-workers and your superiors. 
I'll defer to Marten's advice on the accidental decanting of subpar beverages onto treasured items of clothing.

[Kugai]

Now she'll be in Jeans and a blue shirt

[Rghfrgl]

Damnit Marten, there's one good situation where you get her out of a pretty dress and this is not...AH MOD!

Well, two. Go to that one fancy bar wil works at and get her setup with one of those victorian dresses.

[Is it cold in here?]

Claire in ruffles and a bonnet could work well aesthetically.

Is this foreshadowing? Is the Blue Dress With White Piping going to be the first character killed on screen?

Libraries are good places to spend time even if you're not at work there, and Claire could always invoke one of my favorite xkcd strips.

[Near Lurker]

...dresses are nerdy now?

This dress, maybe...

[mustang6172]

I guess I'll just say it.  There's no way Angus is getting that job.  It'll probably go to someone with a background in either writing or standup, not professional strawmen.