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[CutMan]

I've been trying to write some songs lately, and it's really made me think a lot on lyrics- yes, I know that sort of a "duh" statement. I figured it be interesting for there to be a topic asking what lyrics you guys think are the best, or even songwriters you admire the most lyricly. Then another question I got to thinking on: At what point do lyrics go past being dark and just become angsty/whiney? I think there have been similar topics, but I'm pretty sure they're pretty old now and weren't quite like this one anyway.

[Johnny C]

Lyrics move into angsty and whiny the further they get from two things.

1) Danger.
2) Obscurity.

This is my experience. Having the meaning and content of a song occluded is good. It encourages speculation. The other thing is that taking risks is necessary in good lyrics and good songwriting. Even playing a simple pop song can be risky because it says, "I think I can do this better than everyone else who writes simple pop songs."

[CutMan]

Hey, that sums it up pretty well I'd say. Or atleast it makes a whole lot of sense. Guess it's a good thing I prefer my writing's subject matter to be  rather vague. Oh, and I suppose there's less chance of something being angsty/whiney when it's subject matter isn't completely personal.

[Patrick]

You kinda have to find a balance of writing about things you've experienced and not being whiny. And please god don't try to be funny. Sometimes it works, but after a while it gets old, and if you ever tell the same joke again somebody's already going to know it.

[CutMan]

Be funny? Wouldn't dream of it, not really my thing. And yeah, there has to be some sort of balance. I've kind of come to a point where I just kind of write about characters and channel emotions/opinions through them. [I'm doing a comic, so I have a lot of characters with backstories and such in my head already.]

[ScrambledGregs]

I don't mean to get off topic and single you out, but why do your posts have such weird formatting?? I keep trying to read them as poems but they don't rhyme and I don't think it's your intent.

[CutMan]

Ah, I really don't know, it's just how I do it. See, I don't like typing to the point where it get's this wide, I don't know why, really.
But, if you want, I COULD start ryhming, that would be interesting.

[CutMan]

Interesting, I can totally see how that would work. When it does, grab a bottle of wine and pop the cork. Well, that didn;t quite ryhme... Now I feel like a total slime...

[Patrick]

YOU SHOULD MENTION DONGS
IN LOTS MORE OF YOUR SONGS

DID I DO IT RITE

[Johnny C]

I only write lyrics when I am furious basically.

I find this to be the case increasingly. Furious or frustrated.

[CutMan]

I'm sure I could write some angry songs on those subjects, but I always end up in a calmer state of mind by the time I'm able to write, it sucks.

[Valrus]

How does one write lyrics where the meaning isn't immediately obvious? I can't fucking do it, and it seems like making a conscious attempt to obfuscate otherwise clear lyrics is doomed to comically humiliating failure. Do you just need to have a different kind of brain than I do, or is there some kind of technique or something?

[CutMan]

You know, I don't really know. My lyrics started out obvious and overly personal... I guess I just kept slapping my wrist until I stopped and I improved. Then again, there's nothing wrong with specific songs if done right. They're just harder to write in a way, I mean as in harder to write and make good. Or actually, song writing is probably completely diferrent for everyone. To each their own, you know? Maybe there are no purely true generalizations.

[Kicker of Elves]

How does one write lyrics where the meaning isn't immediately obvious?

That's actually a question that has plagued me for years.
I suppose the key to writing more subtle stuff is writing what you observe and making it just literal enough to seem mysterious (the David Byrne school), or throw together random imagery and unconnected narratives and call it a song (the Stephen Malkmus school), or set stories to music and let everyone else figure out the symbolism (the Colin Meloy school).

[CutMan]

Dir?a que podr?as precisar algo fijar una escena o un humor. El tiempo, por ejemplo. Quiz? una localizaci?n. Entonces tiro en un poco de c?mo te sientes, o de c?mo un car?cter se siente. Un detalle r?pido que cerca ti est? diciendo de qu? est? sucediendo, pero no. Tiro en uno o dos detalles reales, entonces uno o dos detalles parciales. O pod?an todos ser detalles parciales. O por lo menos, ?se es c?mo lo hago cuando deseo ser vago.

[öde]

Je ne parle pas francais, je parle anglais.

[Tyler]

I like wearing eye liner and crying. It helps me write my poetry.

[CutMan]

Right, so, uh.... The mods around here have an odd sense of humor they inflict on people who
bug them? Or did I learn another language and use it without knowing? Because that would make my day.

[CutMan]

Just keep your formatting standard please.

There's a well worn document here if you need some other pointers.

   
Yeah, most mods issue PMs to people who are doing something wrong instead of picking on them with their mighty mod powers, such as they did with both my past post and this one that I'm modifying back. But hey, whatever they want to do, I can't stop them. I changed the way I formatted my posts and have done what you want. Leave me alone, will you?

Writing vaguely works when you describe situations or stories with only partial details. Don't be too explicit about what you mean, and it should work. It's what I do. *sighs*

[Patrick]

...what.

[KharBevNor]

How does one write lyrics where the meaning isn't immediately obvious?

Study the occult. Having to try and work out what The Book of the Law is about permanently rewires your brain. See all Current 93 songs for evidence. Or just use lots and lots of puns and things. I generally prefer lyrics to either be completely bald, or pretty obfuscated. There's lots of ways to do it. Apart from the occult road (so you can just weave names of runes and shit into your lyrics) there's other things: if you want to write a song about someone, or reference them, call them by their nickname or birth name or something. learn lots of slang and technical expressions and things. It is fun!

[CutMan]

That's a good suggestion. You could even do what Hansi[blind Guardian] seems to do, I've noticed some of his lyrics deal with normal problems, only he cloaks them in a fantasy story. Or some social commentary on war and such can be expressed through the same method, he's done that as well. But I guess that's more down the path of fantasy.

[The Eyeball Kid]

I've noticed lately that alot of the lyrics I like, despite the 'obscure' nature of some of my fave lyricists (Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Jeff Mangum - same guys everyone likes) are just real simple aphorisms that i can't imagine phrasing better. Right now its Springsteen - 'Motion is emotion and a motion deep inside/and it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive'. I can't think of a better way to express that, or a reason that thought shouldn't be expressed. Same with Craig Finn: "Lost again in love and faithless fear/i've had kisses that make Judas seem sincere". Its plain language, and the only allusion is pretty obvious. Or Neutral Milk Hotel: "How strange it is to be anything at all". They're simple statements of simple universal truths, and their simplicity is their beauty.

As for obscuring it... i've read interviews with Joanna Newsom about her new record, and she says everything in it has a very clear meaning to her, though it appears obscure to others. Her sister is an astronomer in New Zealand, so all the lyrics about the stars and meteroites and meteroids relate to that... and certain things relate to her lover and her relationships. Its all quite simple to her, but it needs unpacking for us because we don't spend all our time in her head, and not all the symbols are obvious. If you've got anything like that, then its easy- private nicknames for things, abbreviations for streets, whatever.... I could write "I've gone from THC to THS to QC", which would be a shitty lyric... but would simply mean I went from smoking pot to listening to The Hold Steady to reading Questionable Content. To use a more obvious example, Craig Finn's allusion on one of the b-sides: "I'm listening to track 3 on John's last CD/gonna make it through this year if it kills me, and it almost killed me" is pretty obvious IF you know the Mountain Goats song he's referencing and that the Mountain Goats are a dude named John.  On the same token, reading Milton for a class made me realize that certain lines of Nick Cave's that i thought were original were actually direct quotions from Paradise Lost....

You can get real obscure with it- get into total personal symbol-systems, mythologies, whatever. William Blake did alot of that, and Dylan's got a bit of it.... when i write i tend to take things from Dylan songs, which is pretty obvious and overdone

[Patrick]

if you want to write a song about someone, or reference them, call them by their nickname or birth name or something. learn lots of slang and technical expressions and things. It is fun!

Damn, that is some excellent advice. Thanks Khar ^__^ It means I have to rewrite just about every song I've written, but that's alright. I don't want to be like the new-era Chili Peppers, where they've got like 34789346 songs on their album but out of 14 songs on each CD I only listen to like 6 per disc.

[CutMan]

if you want to write a song about someone, or reference them, call them by their nickname or birth name or something. learn lots of slang and technical expressions and things. It is fun!

Damn, that is some excellent advice. Thanks Khar ^__^ It means I have to rewrite just about every song I've written, but that's alright. I don't want to be like the new-era Chili Peppers, where they've got like 34789346 songs on their album but out of 14 songs on each CD I only listen to like 6 per disc.

So you don't want to release a double album....But what does that have to do with rewriting your songs? Sorry, i just don't see the connection, maybe I'm tired. Which would actually mean I shouldn't even post and might should wait, but hey.

[Frivial]

I find that being able to write poetry helps me a lot.

About the obscurity thing, I don't think it's necessary to be obscure. Often the most biting and vivid lyrics come from very specific and clear phrases.
Take Elliott Smith for example. In "Twilight", he writes:

You don't deserve to be
lonely
But those drugs you got won't make you feel
better
Pretty soon you'll find it's the only
Little part of your life you're keeping together

Very direct, not obscure, very effective. Delivery is very important as well.
If you don't care about what you're singing, no one else will care either.

[Patrick]

So you don't want to release a double album....But what does that have to do with rewriting your songs? Sorry, i just don't see the connection, maybe I'm tired. Which would actually mean I shouldn't even post and might should wait, but hey.

What I'm saying is that I want to consistently write an Abbey Road or a Houses of the Holy every time I do an album instead of writing a Hybrid Theory or an In Through The Out Door.

[CutMan]

Ah, I think I see. Although Hybrid Theory isnj't a double album. Or... Maybe I still don't get it and that's irrelevant.

[Patrick]

None of those are double-albums. I'm saying I'd rather have 4 albums filled with purely excellent stuff than have 50 albums filled with crap stuff.