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[TrueNeutral]

I find that the "stupid until proven otherwise" approach on people works very well. You're never disappointed and often pleasantly surprised.

[ScrambledGregs]

My point was an extension of your point. Here is a conversation I might have and in fact have had:

Me: "Oh, you want music for your party? I can burn you a disc." (I am thinking of putting on Daft Punk, Gwen Stefani, Justin Timberlake, Basement Jaxx, ABBA, Madonna, etc.)
Friend: "It better not be full of stupid indie shit!"
Me: "Well it wasn't going to be."

All of which makes me think that people claiming that the indie or hipster thing as being the new mainstream is bullshit. I have never met one person in real life who likes the same music as me. The closest I've gotten is two girlfriends who were avowed, obsessed Modest Mouse and Bright Eyes fans, respectively, until I played them some of the stuff I like.

People I work with knew/know the grunge/alternative bands, like Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and the Smashing Pumpkins, who were mainstream and popular. But until I go into work and put on Tapes 'N Tapes and am met with "oh I know this song...what's it called??", I will never accept the fact that indie is somehow mainstream. Maybe, on the unrepresentative sample that is the Internet, and specifically the QC forums, it is the mainstream. But not in reality.

[TrueNeutral]

Half the people I know, like, IN REAL LIFE, are into indie stuff. I met none of these people through the internet (with the exception of two, I don't count people on the internet as "people I know"). The thing is though, I didn't know most of them liked indie until I knew them for a good while. I don't think many indie people actually talk about their music a lot. I bet a lot of people here, even with how vocal they are about music on this forum, almost never talk about music outside of the internet because they think "I'm so indie, nobody has heard of the stuff I listen to anyway, so why bother?"

At least, this has been my experience with indie people. It is generally due to themselves that they think nobody else listens to the same music. Also, if someone listens to anything mainstream, indie people will generally write you off right away. Apparently, one can't like Sufjan Stevens or Man Man when you also like Staind and Audioslave. You will be accused of "name dropping for the sake of joining a conversation". Seriously, indie kids aren't rare. Just arrogant. There are people more indie than you ALL AROUND YOU.

[Spinless]

I have never met anybody with similar taste to me. I have one good friend who I share ALL of my music with, but he won't like a lot of it. Just the poppier stuff.
He doesn't give me recommendations because he knows I'll just make fun of him for liking bad music.
Even though we don't have the same taste in music, we know eachother's pretty well. I could hear something and think 'Hey, buddy would love this' and I'd be right. Similarly, he could do the exact same thing.
When you're unlikely to ever meet and start a lasting active friendship with somebody who likes the same music you do, you have to learn to appreciate people's personalities.

Your personality is NOT the music you listen to. If it was, I'd have no friends and nobody would like me.
...
Okay, point taken, but it's because I have a rotten personality, not rotten taste in music. My music taste is infallible.

[stefilovesqc]

I've been re-reading High Fidelity lately (yeah, yeah, shut up) and the whole thing about what people are like versus what they like confounds me. I don't think it's a black and white situation, that what people like matters more than what they're like, or vice versa. But in my own personal experience, I do tend to be drawn more toward people who like the same things as me. Maybe that makes me petty and superficial??

For instance, on the rare occaisions I go to parties, I find myself talking to people about music because I'm rather shy and it's the only subject I feel I know enough about to discuss with others. When I find the one or two people at the party who have similar taste to me, I like them the best and end up talking to them the rest of the night. At a large party once I happened upon a guy that liked Captain Beefheart and, in my drunken stupor, I promised him a taped copy of my Lick My Decals Off, Baby vinyl. "Now here's a guy I can drink with, god damnit!!" I shouted to my then-girlfriend across the room as her guests looked perplexed back and forth between us.

I do think that what people are like matters a lot, too. I just am attracted to people who like the same things as me, and from there I see what they're like. Does this preclude me from people I could get along with really well but who like terrible music, books, and movies?? Well, this raises a whole 'nother topic of what makes for friends and lovers...is it having things in common, or being a like, both, or none of those?? But we'll skip that for now.

Look, liking people that have the same music taste as you doesn't make you superficial, IMHO. 1st of all, to get to know a person, you should have something to talk about. Seriously, do you think that if you put and emo and a metalhead in the same room alone they'll talk at all with one another?

BUT! If you make fun of people because of the music they listen to that is teh superficialism(bah I made up a word:P )
anywho, my new year's resolution this year was "no more labels on people" so yeah.

nurr

[stefilovesqc]

My point was an extension of your point. Here is a conversation I might have and in fact have had:

Me: "Oh, you want music for your party? I can burn you a disc." (I am thinking of putting on Daft Punk, Gwen Stefani, Justin Timberlake, Basement Jaxx, ABBA, Madonna, etc.)
Friend: "It better not be full of stupid indie shit!"
Me: "Well it wasn't going to be."

god I hate it when that sort of things happen >_>

[Storm Rider]

I uh, think you should change your avatar.

[David_Dovey]

I don't think many indie people actually talk about their music a lot. I bet a lot of people here, even with how vocal they are about music on this forum, almost never talk about music outside of the internet because they think "I'm so indie, nobody has heard of the stuff I listen to anyway, so why bother?"

This is truth, in my experience. I and a very large percentage of my friends like metal, and share a lot of bands in common. Where we differ, however, is that I usually consider the bands we share in common to be the more "mainstream" side of my tastes (i.e; bands more popular in the metal community at large or bands making more "conventional" music). When I was first getting into more avant-garde or experimental styles of music I tried to introduce bands like Ulver to my friends, only to be met with mild bemusement at the best of times. I basically stopped trying after that, except for the occasional stab to get my more indie-rock-inclined friends into The Decemberists and Regina Spektor (also usually met with indifference)

[NiMRoD420]

The metal scene here kind of blows balls. It's frowned upon to make any kind of metal other than BR00TAL DEATH METAL DEATH TO FALSE METAL RARARARARA. I like melody, myself.

[valley_parade]

hey man, we're kvlt as fuck.

[Dimmukane]

kvit.  looked like you were trying to say 'svelte'

[KharBevNor]

No, no, it's definitely kvlt.

[David_Dovey]

tr00, n3kr0 and fr0stb1tt3n as well.

[KharBevNor]

Combining 1337 speak with black metal terminology is actually definitely lukewarm and poserish.

[Will]

Hey, Khar, I've been wondering ever since I first saw the term...what the FUCK is kvlt?  I know it's a black metal slogan, but does it have any real definition to it?  Fgure if anyone can give me an answer to this that will make sense to my head, it'd be you.

[Storm Rider]

I believe it's a corrupted spelling of cult, which in turn is a shortened form of occult. I might be wrong though.

[KharBevNor]

kvlt is half a term of praise, half a term of derision, depends on its context. It refers to music that sticks true to the most under-underground ideals of black metal: bleak aesthetics, murky or super-saturated black and white artwork, atmosphere over production, and often limited releases, perhaps vinyl-only, no website, no label, etc. etc. You might apply it as praise to something that sticks to this sort of style and ideal, but is really fucking good, you might apply it to the detriment of a band (and many exist) which is obviously using these tactics of production, distribution and design to make their releases literally 'cult', by artificially inflating the demand for their work with limited editions of albums and creating an aura of mystery around themselves with limited press, in at least a few known cases as a cover for actually giving their own bands great reviews on websites and in zines, and then often as not bootlegging their own releases.

As far as origin, pretty sure it stems from a mix of the word 'cult' (as in a cult movie) and cult as in death cult, with grimmed up spelling.

[Scytale]

what Khar said, if you're hanging out with BM elitists (good help you if you are) and you said Moonblood was "cult", they'd agree with you. If you said the same thing about Dark Funeral they'd probably laugh.

On the net kvlt with garbaled spelling is kind of used to mock BM elitists along with "Nekro" "Troo" etc.

The BM scene is one of the most fucking annoying things around. People go out of there way to find the most obscure limit release demos whatever they can find and the more kvlt it is the better. Then you get shit like Velvet Cacoon that comes along spread all this bullshit about a dissel fume powered harp and being "eco-terrorists" and the BM scene eats it up because these guys are "cult as fuck" and the whole scene  starts collectively sucking their cock and declaring them as the next big thing. They make a bit of money and wind up having a huge laugh at the scene.

Another example, look at the whole Krieg shit.

Kanwulf puts out an album called Black Metal ist Krieg: a dedication monument"  Which is he's way of stating that the black metal aesthetic is dead and it has been defeated by commericalism (krieg is German for war). It was an attempt of he's to point out that the whole fucking BM scene has sold out. The whole album is Kanwulf attempting to pay remind people what the BM he grew up with stood for, thats why its got songs on there like "The Day Burzum killed Mayhem" and "Possessed by Black Metal". Just look at the lyrics


1993, this year of misery was the knife
which split the Black Metal scene apart.
Since that mighty day Black metal split his Way,
Lies, rumors and hate. Moneymaking, sadness
And shame
And all this by, the Day as Burzum Killed Mayhem.
Remember this day! Remember this way!
That you never betray, what here leads you
On your way!
And I never will forget



But Nothing More Remained. Because Black Metal Died.
Gone The Days Of Pure Underground. Of Spirit, Pain And Fire.
So Listen To Your heart, What Black Metal Means To You.


and the truly ironic thing is no one fucking listened to he's message, "Krieg" became the new "necro" or the new "cult" and that is why the BM scene shits me too no end, they are a bunch of ignorant fucks who have no idea about the Black Metal Aesthetic at all, its more important to them to be cult, necro and cold, they'll just felate the same old shit over and over again and dismiss anything that tries to be innovative or creative because it doesn't sound like De Mysteriis.

Sorry about the rant, was just in the mood to vent.

edit: added some links for those who have no idea what I'm crapping on about.

[ScrambledGregs]

I actually talk about my music all the time, but only when people ask me. You've got to keep in mind, though, that 80% of my co-workers are 40 or older and don't take music as seriously/obsessively as I do. If they ask me who I'm playing, I tell them, or younger people I work with.

[Dimmukane]

I typically listen to metal, but most people would probably look at me, talk to me, and think I'm a kid who got rejected from the fraternity he tried to join.  or some shit like that.

[BrittanyMarie]

I work at a video store and we have one copy of the Devil and Daniel Johnston. It doesn't get rented out too often, but when it does, OH BOY do I get excited and well... first I'll ask if they're acquainted with him (turns out some psychology professor was assigning it for extra credit, so few did); if they are I get really excited.

Then there's my favorite baristo who I started having a good repore with because he cut his beard off but left a Zappa 'stache. I love Zappa. So does he!

So... I talk about music when the other person actually cares. (Also, I work downtown so most of my coworkers have fairly eclectic tastes anyway)

[KharBevNor]

@ Scytale: I've always had a different spin on it. The basic thing is that, quite honestly, 'Black Metal Ist Krieg' is a completely ridiculous album. Kanwulf himself is probably one of the best examplars of the idea of 'kvlt', past obvious candidates like Velvet Cacoon, Moonblood, Vlad Tepes and whatnot. The mans a damn cartoon character, and he takes himself with ridiculous seriousness. I've always considered, and read about, the origin of 'Krieg' as a term basically being a mockery of Kanwulfs backwards looking, pretentious, faux black metal mafia buffoonery, and the massive gravitas with which he clearly views himself. Kanwulf is a prime example, in fact, of what I would say my main problem with the black metal scene is (though I've got to say I back up most of your criticisms, and in fact most of Kanwulfs, though from a different position), which is the fact that its often as not completely philosophically bankrupt. Fans just parrot slogans and views from their favourite bands, rather than doing anything like, say, reading a book, which I'm sure most of the better bands would want them to do. Whether you disagree with it or not (and I often tend to be half and half, again, I come from a different position to some of the same conclusions), Black Metal, in its ideal form, functions as a serious vessel for philosophical, aesthetic and spiritual concepts. Many bands ignore this: I can accept that readily if its just to go for a bit of rock 'n roll (a la Carpathian Forest), but far too many bands are committing that worst of sins, that is pretending to have ideas. I guess I also find this unthinking tendency dangerous because you really do have to approach Black Metal with some critical filters down or its going to turn you in to someone with roughly the same outlook on life as an SS Officer from a 1960's boys adventure comic.   

That said, I have bootlegs of every single Vlad Tepes demo and split.

[TrueNeutral]

The metal scene here kind of blows balls. It's frowned upon to make any kind of metal other than BR00TAL DEATH METAL DEATH TO FALSE METAL RARARARARA. I like melody, myself.

The whole metal scene here consists of metalcore and some leftovers from the nu-metal boom. The whole metal scene in the rest of Holland consists of shitty Within Temptation ripoffs who also use Evanescence as an influence for their 'symphonic metal' which they seem to fondly refer to as 'goth rock'.

Woe is us.

[KharBevNor]

Wierd, I always consider the dutch scene to basically just be full of somewhat mongoloid death metal and grind purists.

[TrueNeutral]

You'd think that, but most of those are just metalcore in disguise. Sometimes, you'd get a band on stage that goes "we play a mix between speed and death metal" and they're neither f4st nor kvlt. Just some guy cookie monstering over downtuned guitars.

[a pack of wolves]

Seriously, do you think that if you put and emo and a metalhead in the same room alone they'll talk at all with one another?

Two things. One: people that like predominantly fast, aggressive music and people that like predominantly fast, aggressive music will probably have one or two bands they can agree on. Two: if the only thing you ever have to talk about is music then you're excessively dull and not worth having a conversation with anyway.

[The Eyeball Kid]

Yesterday I found out that John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats HATES Lord of the Rings. Books and movies. I found this out via his blog's forum, where he was a bit mean about it, and i was thinking "do i want to pay $40 to see a guy who hates stuff I really like?", even when that had nothing to do with his music.
He's a big metalhead- love his music, don't so much love the music he's into.

I've had trouble with people not having the same music tastes as me, but it goes both way - mainstream people who consider me too indie and the indie types i hang out with who think i'm way too mainstream 'cause i tend to listen to more mainstream indie like Tom Waits and the Decemberists... plus the occasional reflexsive hate for The Hold Steady and Springsteen

[KharBevNor]

I don't get not liking Lord of the Rings. To me, not liking the Lord of the Rings in any way, means or form probably indicates that you have some difference in your outlook on life to me so fundamental that trying to get along may simply be unproductive.

[Jackie Blue]

"Indie" is mainstream.  Not in the sense that you're going to hear the new Yo La Tengo album at a frat party, but in the sense that "mainstream, popular kids" listen to stuff like The Killers, Modest Mouse, Death Cab For Cutie, Interpol, and Bright Eyes.  Whether you accept those bands as being part of the "indie" definition depends on how much of a picky hipster snob you are, I reckon.

And even "real" indie is a lot more popular now than when I was growing up - not in all parts of the world, but in more significant numbers in more cities.  For example, I live in Knoxville, TN - a pretty backwards, redneck town, even though it has a college - and recently Broken Social Scene nearly sold out a large, fancy theater.  8 years ago, Low and Tarentel played here and both could barely pull 50 people into a coffee shop.  When Melt Banana played here last year, the club was so full you literally couldn't move.  Same with Trans Am about 5 years ago.  Now, I didn't move here til I was 23, but people I know who grew up here assure me that in the early 90s you'd be lucky to know one other kid in your highschool who could even spell Sebadoh.

[Jackie Blue]

Not if the sole criteria is being on an Independent Record Label, which was the original definition.

I know that, Pedantic Man, but you have to realize that nobody uses that definition of "indie rock" outside of some people who, like you, live in the UK.  The two definitions people use in a global sense now are:

1.  Some vague stylistic definition that broadly has something to do with being smarter than other "rock" bands - everything from Pavement to Sonic Youth.  Sonic Youth has not been on an independant label for 17 years, but most people who aren't being pedantic twits would broadly categorize them as "indie rock", or at least, "parents of indie rock".

2.  Some arbitrary ethical definition that broadly has something to do with being more "real" than other "rock" bands - everything from Bright Eyes to the Mountain Goats.

Now, both of those definitions are also useless, but are at least marginally more useful than calling everything on an indie label "indie rock", which results in lumping Acid Mothers Temple and Belle and Sebastian together.  While I enjoy both of those bands, I think it's a lot more specific and useful to call the former "psychedelic rock" and the latter "indie pop" rather than calling either of them "indie rock".  OK?

To quote the melancholy rhino:

"There's two ways of discussing 'indie' - one generic/categoric/analytic, an attempt at objectivity, the other judgmental/personal/anecdotal, an application of attitude that subsumes both aesthetics and economics - and there's no obvious way of separating them out.

The generic bit is easily enough determined. It's generally agreed that indie starts with Nirvana - there was plenty of music around before 1991 that didn't fit into the mainstream and was put out on independent labels or white labels and had a cult following, but it was called underground in the 70's, post-punk in the 80's, and alternative thereafter, and it wasn't until ‘Never Mind’ went supernova that the word 'indie' started to be used by the mainstream media to tag something that had previously been ignored. Its usage differed subtly in the UK and the States, in that UK indie emerged as a reaction to the commodification of Britpop (Oasis - believe it or not - were seminal once) and has been personnified by a distinctively non-metropolitan (ie proudly detached from the London club scene) sound, like that of groups such as Super Furry Animals, Gorky's Zygotic Mynci, and Manic Street Preachers, from Wales, and Mogwai, Arab Strap, the Delgados, and Belle and Sebastian, from Glasgow, being less rock-centric, in general, than its US manifestation - 'indie rock' - which some say evolved out of the different styles of just three highly influential bands: Sebadoh (lo-fi aesthetic - big on enthusiasm, small on technical proficiency), Pavement (quirkier, art-damaged, self-referential, musically diverse), and Superchunk (punky - guitars, more guitars, and very loud drums).

But this is the sort of contentious lippy stuff that barstool musicologists will contentedly blab on about til the cows come home and still no-one will be any the wiser. Can Radiohead still be thought of as indie despite being signed to a major? Is Sigur R?s selling its soul to EMI, or are they just ensuring a vastly wider audience than ever they could have achieved via the resources available to Bad Taste or Fat Cat? Does this sort of thing matter except as a major source of procrastination at exam revision time?"

[The Eyeball Kid]

I don't get not liking Lord of the Rings. To me, not liking the Lord of the Rings in any way, means or form probably indicates that you have some difference in your outlook on life to me so fundamental that trying to get along may simply be unproductive.

There's alot of cognitive dissonance involved when hanging around Last Plane to Jakarta and its forums... mostly its that The Mountain Goats are real low-fi indie folk, which is why I went to the blog, but the guy's writing poems about Drastus so to understand them I need to absorb all the stuff you said about kreig and kvult and all that, so now i'm listening to a guy i love who writes really great songs telling me to listen to Bolthrower and arguging with other metalheads about.... but now that i understand the black metal aesthetic I can apply it to how he makes his music...

Mountain Goats aside, i fall with indie as general/catagoric label. If the Mountain Goats sign to a major label and play the same sort of music then its 'indie' + folk/whatever, 'cause it still falls under what 'indie' fans listen to and whats played on 'indie' radio. Its a handy definition - if you like similar bands with an intelligent aesthetic that are a bit outside the mainstream and fit with a dominant trend in indie (in this case, low-fi or folk), then you should give the Mountain Goats a listen. If John starts writing black metal albums instead of just writing about them, though, then it goes to black metal or hell 'indie black metal' like Mastodon or something (i.e. metal its okay for me to like).

As a label indie is kinda useless, but as a qualifier- indie rock, indie pop -  its a bit helpful. It won't tell you about the sound, but it will tell you about the general audience. The bands i like might sound different, but they're all generally intelligent, kinda outside the mainstream, and have the same sort of fans... but then you could argue that the fanbase defines the label, so whatever the 'indie' fanbase listens to is 'indie'.

I dunno... working for a live events website its a helpful label, since indie is a coherant fanbase in my area. I guess alot of that black metal stuff is more indie/independent then something like the Shins or Modest Mouse (tiny labels, etc), but it dosen't generally get called indie for some reason...

[Jackie Blue]

I have heard all the arguments that say Interpol are Indie and I've decided they are erroneous for my own reasons. That doesn't make me a pedant or a snob, that makes me someone who has thoughtfully considered the possible implications of a word and decided he prefers the original definition.

Wait - Interpol's two albums are on an independant label.  Are you saying that in the UK they're on a major?  Now I'm just confused.

I think we fundamentally agree, though, so I apologize for calling you pedantic.

[Jackie Blue]

Yeah, Interpol is signed to Capitol, but haven't released anything for them yet.

It took me a while to get into them.  When their first album came out, I hated it.  I mean I really hated it.  I thought it was the most obvious rip-off of every late-80s/early-90s British band I'd loved - Lush, the Church, Slowdive, the Chameleons, you name it.  The one comparison I never got was the "Joy Division rip-off".  And I'm a huge Joy Division fan.

Fast forward to their second album.  I heard "Slow Hands" on the local college station and liked it, took a chance on buying the second album, and loved it.  It's much less derivative and calculated than the first, though I have grown to like the first one now, as well.

The only other band I can think of that I went from hating to loving is Neutral Milk Hotel, though it only took me a few months in '98 for that to happen, whereas it took me 2 years to reverse on Interpol.

[Johnny C]

Zerodrone are you me in disguise?

[ScrambledGregs]

1) I don't know what they're like currently, but I loved the first Interpol album. LOVED.

2) I just today bought the book Our Band Could Be Your Life, and while the original definition of indie may have been being on an independent record label, I think today it just as easily applies to bands who go for the same aesthetic/ideology of the bands in that book, insofar as wanting control over their music and not trying to be the biggest band in the world. Like a lot of things in human culture, I can't define 'indie' well enough for a fitting dictionary entry, but I know it when I hear it/see it.

[Misereatur]

That's why I'm so hesitant to recommend music to people. I just think of how bad I thought most of it was the first ten times I heard it and imagine them going "jeez, why did Tommy tell me to listen to this shit, what an asshat etc". I guess I have very little confidence in the music I enjoy.

A lot of the stuff I listen to today are bands you recommended on the forum (Joan of Arc, Silkworm, Rites of Spring, Shellac, Low etc).

[Jackie Blue]

No list of essential punk/indie books would be complete without Rollins' "Get In the Van".

[Johnny C]

Please Kill Me by Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain.

You really owe it to yourself to read this book. It's absolutely captivating.

[KharBevNor]

2) I just today bought the book Our Band Could Be Your Life, and while the original definition of indie may have been being on an independent record label, I think today it just as easily applies to bands who go for the same aesthetic/ideology of the bands in that book, insofar as wanting control over their music and not trying to be the biggest band in the world. Like a lot of things in human culture, I can't define 'indie' well enough for a fitting dictionary entry, but I know it when I hear it/see it.

This is something like what I was going to write. 'Indie' is more about DIY than anything else. Indie encompasses bands with certain ethics and aesthetics and culture and a range of sounds, and that's all there is to it. You can call it 'missapropriation', and say that the original meaning of indie was to apply to bands on independent record labels back in the 80's, but that's not true. I mean, I can trawl through my music collection and give some examples. Alien Sex Fiend, Death in June, The Birthday Party, Bauhaus, Current 93...All bands that have never been on a major label, and have also never been referred to as indie. Same with lots of other bands: any ska band, any metal band, any punk band, countless others, at least those not on majors. In your view, it would be completely acceptable to call anyone from The Specials to Darkthrone 'indie'. Now, to you, this may make sense, but, however, in the english language, words are defined by their usage, and as I've said, we can't even say here that they're being used wrong, as with the way other musical terms are sometimes applied: the fact is they've never been used any other way. Like it or not, indie is a concrete thing, and no clever wordplay will get you out of it.

[salada]

Most people I know who are really into breakcore also take too many drugs for me to comfortably hang out with them all the time.

Drum'n'bass heads can be fun, but often will bore you to tears going on and on about production and this new tune they're working on.

On the other hand, I've met a bunch of people with similar music tastes to me who I don't get along with at all. Still, it's fun to go on and on about obscure artists etc with someone who kinda knows what you're talking about.

(And to derail this thread again, momentarily: regarding the cult/kvlt thing a few pages back. I don't not much (i.e. anything) about metal, but the Latin alphabet originally used the V character to represent both U and V in writing. A separate glyph for U didn't turn up until the Middle Ages. I'd guess that's a possible explanation for the spelling? Got nothing for the C/K change though -- maybe K was used more for "hard C" sounds, back in the day? *shrug* )

[KharBevNor]

A K just makes it look more Scandinavian/Germanic/Medieval (the time of the lack of soft C's). The V, similiarly, is a reference to such things, and also to the more common runic futharks (which have no letter U, and ironically no letter V either, though you wouldn't think it to hear Old Norse or Icelandic spoken). Not that I'm saying that these are conscious, crafted references of course, all this stuff is just a part of the accumulated aesthetics around black metal. If you're in to it, then spelling cult 'kvlt' just makes sense.