Fun Stuff > CLIKC
I need some opinions
Narr:
--- Quote from: Kid van Pervert on 09 Oct 2007, 19:58 ---Blasphemy. Minsc is win, especially with the restored content that gives him nat 19 strength. I've never used his spellcasting. And it doesn't make sense to compare him to any of the newer CNPCs, since BG1, lacking kits as it did, was far less broken and far more indicative of the authentic tabletop experience not concerned with munchkin stats. Khalid, to give an example, was a fighter with 15 strength. That's something you'd normally get in D&D but is completely unthinkable in a computer game version, especially with unlimited rerolls ensuring desired stats.
Keldorn's only good because the Inquisitor kit was hopelessly overpowered.
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Restored content? That some mod? Last I heard he was at something like 18/73. And why would you not make use of a character's full abilities? Barkskin helps.
And it's totally fair to compare him to the NPCs in BG2 because you have the choice of using them or him. In a hardcore setting, who would you rather have? The best or a liability? Both ThunderClaw and soulmata refuse to use him for that reason alone (plus they almost always make evil characters and just find Minsc annoying).
I personally have no problem with him, but there are much better and more likable (imo) characters in the game.
And Keldorn is good for a lot of reasons. Reasonably high strength and constitution, decent spellcasting, a good kit, the ability to use two of the game's best weapons, great default armor, and while I haven't been able to confirm WHY it happens he seems to get an absurd amount of critical hits. It happened for me, my brother, and a friend of mine. We all seem to think the same thing but haven't been able to PROVE it.
Now the best NPC by far is Sarevok, who does like 200 damage on a critical. We at PIH think it's pretty much worthless to use any other fighter for that reason (that ability makes him superior than any player made fighter could ever be).
KvP:
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---Restored content? That some mod? Last I heard he was at something like 18/73.
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Like most games, BG2 had content that the designers wanted to put into the game but didn't have time to implement properly (BG2 actually had very little left out. For a course in how cut content can hurt a game, consult KOTOR2) and after it was released the game community got ahold of what the cut content was and took it upon themselves to put it all in. It all came out as Unfinished Business. Among the additions are a proper resolution to the Circus Tent Illusionist quest, and a sidequest in which Boo is stolen. While Boo is gone, Minsc has a strength of 10 (Minsc depends on Boo in more than one way), and when you track down Boo and get him back, Minsc's strength goes from 18/93 to 19, and he gains the ability to summon a clone of Boo once per day (it's a rat, only really good for setting off traps)
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---And why would you not make use of a character's full abilities? Barkskin helps.
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The same reason it doesn't make sense to multiclass at 3rd or 4th level. Minsc was meant for out-and-out fighting and any other divine caster easily outclasses him spell-wise. Time Minsc would take to cast a low-level spell is better spent putting big dents in things. Besides, if we were to make full use of his abilities we'd restrict him to leather armors to enable his sneaking, which is ludicrous. Best to either give him a nice two-handed sword (Lilarcor the talking sword is a perfect fit) or put that extra proficiency into two-weapon fighting and turn him into a whirlwind fighter (getting him good with flails and giving him the Flail of Ages is a safe bet) If you're going to go with a spellcasting ranger, you'll want Valygar with his extended spell list, and you'll want to give him the +3 lightning katana in his off hand (truly the greatest weapon in BG2, but not in ToB)
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---And it's totally fair to compare him to the NPCs in BG2 because you have the choice of using them or him. In a hardcore setting, who would you rather have? The best or a liability? Both ThunderClaw and soulmata refuse to use him for that reason alone (plus they almost always make evil characters and just find Minsc annoying).
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For one, Minsc is hardly a liability. Aerie or Viconia in melee is a liability. Haer-Dalis in anything is a liability. But in answer to your question, in a hardcore setting, I wouldn't go with the given CNPCs at all. I'd utilize the "multiplayer" mode and create a totally broken, maxed-stat all-kit party, Icewind Dale style:
Inquisitor / Berserker / Barbarian
Any thief kit (bounty hunters can kill Irenicus at the Tree of Life in one round, provided you set traps for him)
Shapeshifter / Avenger / multiclass mage-cleric
Monk
Cleric kit / multiclass ranger-cleric
Sorcerer.
This is the best way to make the game your bitch, especially if you're running an evil character, since there are only 3 CNPCs that will stick with you through a low reputation. But I wouldn't do that, because the lasting greatness of BG2 is in its party dynamics, which you don't get with a user-made party. And Minsc has, on the whole, a better and more consistent "personality" than Keldorn.
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---And Keldorn is good for a lot of reasons. Reasonably high strength and constitution, decent spellcasting, a good kit, the ability to use two of the game's best weapons, great default armor, and while I haven't been able to confirm WHY it happens he seems to get an absurd amount of critical hits. It happened for me, my brother, and a friend of mine. We all seem to think the same thing but haven't been able to PROVE it.
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Minsc has a much better strength, same con (I think). Keldorn gains THAC0 slightly slower, and he can't cast spells except for those his kit gives him (he's an Inquisitor, remember? no spellcasting, no turning), it's quite possible to go without the Holy Avenger, by the time you get him you should be able to replace his armor with something better, and he shouldn't be getting more critical hits but then the dicerolling isn't truly random anyway. Keldorn's greatest strength is his kit abilities, as they make your party fairly magic-proof so long as he stays under your control. But he's only a vital character if you haven't played that long. Multiple spellcasters of high level can easily substitute Keldorn's spell abilities and Minsc can easily fill his combat shoes and then some. I've run games with both Keldorn and Minsc, and Minsc always gets +50% of the total party kills.
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---I personally have no problem with him, but there are much better and more likable (imo) characters in the game.
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Sure, but beyond the obvious subjectivity of taste (I personally quite enjoy the character) he doesn't have to be likable to be efficient.
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---Now the best NPC by far is Sarevok, who does like 200 damage on a critical. We at PIH think it's pretty much worthless to use any other fighter for that reason (that ability makes him superior than any player made fighter could ever be).
--- End quote ---
I don't think so. By the time you get to ToB and Sarevok, if any of your party members aren't completely amazing you're playing the game the wrong way. The best CNPC in the game, I would have to say, might actually be Aerie or Edwin, given that you snag them a ring of wizardry, the amulet of power and the robe of Vecna, which give them spell slots and reduce all casting times by 5, effectively rendering any spells of 5th level or lower instantaneous casts. Now, they cast improved alacrity, then time stop, then unleash every spell from 1st to 5th they have before time starts again and they all come into effect at the same time. A sorcerer PC equipped with these items becomes completely unstoppable.
Narr:
--- Quote from: Kid van Pervert on 10 Oct 2007, 01:55 ---
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---And it's totally fair to compare him to the NPCs in BG2 because you have the choice of using them or him. In a hardcore setting, who would you rather have? The best or a liability? Both ThunderClaw and soulmata refuse to use him for that reason alone (plus they almost always make evil characters and just find Minsc annoying).
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For one, Minsc is hardly a liability. Aerie or Viconia in melee is a liability. Haer-Dalis in anything is a liability. But in answer to your question, in a hardcore setting, I wouldn't go with the given CNPCs at all.[/laugh]Ever used Aerie, Keldorn, Anomen, Viconia, or Jaheira in the same party as Minsc? He goes berserk and can attack your OWN CHARACTERS in certain situations. Take, for example, if Aerie happens to die in battle, he'll flip out and try and kill you. I know he has conflicts with a lot of the other characters in dialogue that can lead to him enraging and attacking them, as well. Without that mod you listed (which seems pretty cool, I'll admit. I'm going to show it to the other PIH guys and see what they think) Korgan is superior to Minsc for every single thing you mentioned Minsc is good for. Why use a ranger to do the job of a more powerful fighter?
As for party dynamics, you're thinking a regular game playthrough. That's fine. If that's how you enjoy the game, then don't play it hardcore. Minsc is a liability without a reload button.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---And Keldorn is good for a lot of reasons. Reasonably high strength and constitution, decent spellcasting, a good kit, the ability to use two of the game's best weapons, great default armor, and while I haven't been able to confirm WHY it happens he seems to get an absurd amount of critical hits. It happened for me, my brother, and a friend of mine. We all seem to think the same thing but haven't been able to PROVE it.
--- End quote ---
Minsc has a much better strength, same con (I think). Keldorn gains THAC0 slightly slower, and he can't cast spells except for those his kit gives him (he's an Inquisitor, remember? no spellcasting, no turning), it's quite possible to go without the Holy Avenger, by the time you get him you should be able to replace his armor with something better, and he shouldn't be getting more critical hits but then the dicerolling isn't truly random anyway. Keldorn's greatest strength is his kit abilities, as they make your party fairly magic-proof so long as he stays under your control. But he's only a vital character if you haven't played that long. Multiple spellcasters of high level can easily substitute Keldorn's spell abilities and Minsc can easily fill his combat shoes and then some. I've run games with both Keldorn and Minsc, and Minsc always gets +50% of the total party kills.
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Paladins and Rangers have the same THAC0, I am reasonably sure. And while Minsc has better strength, it's not so much better I ever gave a damn because by the time it was a sincere problem, I was boosting Keldorn's stats with items. Keldorn with the gauntlets of dexterity (an unfortunate must for him) and a girdle of strength turn him into a tremendous powerhouse as his saving throws blow Minsc's pathetic brainpower out of the water. Every time I have ever played, Keldorn was my personal melee guy of choice if my character wasn't one already, with the majority of the kills. Minsc was too busy getting his brain eaten by mind flayers.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---I personally have no problem with him, but there are much better and more likable (imo) characters in the game.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but beyond the obvious subjectivity of taste (I personally quite enjoy the character) he doesn't have to be likable to be efficient.
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I only brought that up because you guys were hating on Keldorn for his personality and praising Minsc for his. So, right back at you. A character doesn't have to be likable to be efficient. Anomen is a great example of that.
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Oct 2007, 22:50 ---Now the best NPC by far is Sarevok, who does like 200 damage on a critical. We at PIH think it's pretty much worthless to use any other fighter for that reason (that ability makes him superior than any player made fighter could ever be).
--- End quote ---
I don't think so. By the time you get to ToB and Sarevok, if any of your party members aren't completely amazing you're playing the game the wrong way. The best CNPC in the game, I would have to say, might actually be Aerie or Edwin, given that you snag them a ring of wizardry, the amulet of power and the robe of Vecna, which give them spell slots and reduce all casting times by 5, effectively rendering any spells of 5th level or lower instantaneous casts. Now, they cast improved alacrity, then time stop, then unleash every spell from 1st to 5th they have before time starts again and they all come into effect at the same time. A sorcerer PC equipped with these items becomes completely unstoppable.
--- End quote ---
You are arguing with the wrong person now.
I shouldn't have said best NPC, let me retract that statement and say best melee NPC. If you think your other guys because they have more levels from having been in your party longer are better than Sarevok, you are wrong. It's not his stats that make him superior to any other melee fighter (although they pretty much do anyway), it's the official bonuses the guys at Black Isle gave him.
I will agree Aerie and Edwin are amazing. Aerie is the single best buff-bot in the game (soulmata once used Aerie and only her to kill the silver dragon in the underdark, after buffing herself up the ass and then turning into an iron golem) and Edwin is a superior wizard to any player-made wizard because he gets more spells per day than it's possible to get on your own.
Stryc9Fuego:
...oops. I didn't mean to start this big ole BG fight up in here.
I say we leave this as "different people like different characters for different reasons" and get back on track.
:police:
Narr:
Hey, it's not a big deal. I enjoy these kind of discussions.
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