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Will Sheff writes real good

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a pack of wolves:
I disagree that the artist can be seen as in control. Again going back to Barthes the inherent intertextuality of any piece of art and the remote position of the artist means that meaning is created by the listener when they encounter the piece, not discovered by them. Since the artist can't control the context in which the art is experienced their control over meaning is not absolute although I'd say they have more influence than the very reductive position Barthes put them in.

The reason masks always spring to mind for me is because a mask is often used to present a particular aspect of your personality to the world, a particular vision of you, much like first person song lyrics can. There is no way they could encompass a person's entire character, so yes I am arguing they are in the character of themselves in the sense of being an image of themselves. They are able to very deliberately select what words they use and therefore what image they attempt to show, although as I've said how we read their mask is not something they can control. Mirrors actually work quite well for this as a metaphor. They distort images, they're two-dimensional, they can be positioned so they give whatever image the holder desires and someone looking at the same mirror will invariably see a different image the holder cannot control since they can't be in the same place and the angle alters what's seen.

Borondir:

--- Quote from: a pack of wolves on 05 Dec 2007, 18:26 ---What you've missed is that genocide and domestic violence are only possible in a culture filled with hate, violence and concepts of superiority based on arbitrary traits, often ones which only exist when constructed by a society (gender, race etc). It's hard to start ranking these things when they cannot exist in isolation.

--- End quote ---
Exactly.  I didn't want to say the word patriarchy, since it just brings up all sorts of unjustified prejudice against feminism, but pack of wolves is absolutely right that violence and oppression exist as part and parcel of hierarchical societies. 

On the other subject, I think even the most honest lyrics can never be a complete laying bare of the artists soul...both the conscious act of creating and arranging the words and the different contexts in which listeners receive them mean that art takes on a life of its own, outside the power of either.

Johnny C:

--- Quote from: a pack of wolves on 06 Dec 2007, 01:02 ---They are able to very deliberately select what words they use and therefore what image they attempt to show

--- End quote ---

See, from that perspective I'm currently in character typing this post, which isn't true at all. The difference between this post and the way I'd say it in real life is that if you were talking directly to me I'd be pausing to select those words.

It's a tough argument, and I see where you're coming from but the statement that an artist is always writing in character is a dangerous one; in broad strokes, it seems to assert that artists are either always firm in their beliefs on an unsavory subject or they never really mean it. If it's the first one then we're making claims about people that may be outright lies, and if it's the second one we'd be letting odious people get away with nasty shit without having the right to call them on it.

The fact is, whether or not an artist is writing in order to reflect a particular worldview isn't as important as whether or not the artist is writing as somebody else. Isolating one facet of your personality and coming up with lyrics from that perspective is an entirely different act than isolating someone else's personality and writing from that.

EDIT: Personal example. I'm writing a song right now called "Be A Man." I'm writing it from the perspective of a man who doesn't really respect women or anyone else and instead seeks his own happiness first and foremost, and he's actually adressing me. I'm intending it as a critique of the general attitude I see in my province, city and university. It starts with these lines:

You some kinda faggot, son
I don't understand where you're coming from

I don't call people "faggot," ever. I find the term incredibly distasteful at best and outright harmful at worst, and I doubt that on this forum I'd have to go into reasons why. But the worldview I'm writing from in this song isn't my worldview.

I've also written a song very recently with the lines,

These songs were meant for a singular "you,"
Somebody different, somebody new
The first time we touched, talked...

Which is, especially for me, incredibly direct. I'm writing this song from my worldview. It's me, completely unmasked, and I doubt it's hard to figure out the meaning behind those lines, no matter what context they're in.

KvP:
I guess this is as good of a place to announce this as any.

Okkervil River has released a free mixtape of live covers on their website, looks like in conjunction with Pitchfork. So, if you like Okkervil River, or you like covers, download away.

Nice articles, by the way.

a pack of wolves:

--- Quote from: Johnny C on 06 Dec 2007, 10:00 ---It's a tough argument, and I see where you're coming from but the statement that an artist is always writing in character is a dangerous one; in broad strokes, it seems to assert that artists are either always firm in their beliefs on an unsavory subject or they never really mean it. If it's the first one then we're making claims about people that may be outright lies, and if it's the second one we'd be letting odious people get away with nasty shit without having the right to call them on it.

The fact is, whether or not an artist is writing in order to reflect a particular worldview isn't as important as whether or not the artist is writing as somebody else. Isolating one facet of your personality and coming up with lyrics from that perspective is an entirely different act than isolating someone else's personality and writing from that.

--- End quote ---

I agree that attempting to write from someone else's perspective and attempting to write from your own are different things, but I see them as being different points on the same line if you see what I mean. That is, that the own perspective that you present is always going to be a construct and becomes separate from the creator as soon as it's made. Pressing post here is much the same as singing a song to someone in that the 'I' is gone and what's left is the character you create when you read it. I don't think this effects how much an artist means something though. I've written songs in character where I've been making statements I vehemently disagree with much like the lyrics you posted (very good lyrics, by the way, I'd like to hear the whole thing) but I've also used non-first person characters who represented things I've thought or aspects of myself. I didn't mean those things any less because I was using a character.

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