Fun Stuff > CLIKC
D&D 4th Edition
Storm Rider:
Catfish_Man:
--- Quote from: Narr on 09 Feb 2008, 15:48 ---
--- Quote from: Catfish_Man on 08 Feb 2008, 22:22 ---Your friends don't know how to play fighters. Apparently, neither do you.
--- End quote ---
Tell me something I don't know about fighters, then.
Grapple checks? Knockdowns? Bull rushes? Whirlwind attacks? Arrows?
Fighters hit things until they die. End of story. No tricks. The only tricks they have is in their equipment and their potions. It is impossible to play a fighter and beat any caster that's worth a lick of salt. Planning on trying to cripple me in melee somehow? Good luck actually hitting through my thousands of mirror images, buffed armor class, and damage reduction. Going to try and dispel my stuff through the use of an item? That's too bad; I've got a spell mantle or two up that'll absorb it. Actually, fuck all that. I'll just Dire Charm you right away to make you MY meatshield.
Don't tell me I don't know how to play a fighter. That's pretty insulting.
The way Pen and Paper is designed, you're pretty much only supposed to have one significant encounter a day. Fighters are nice buff targets for a party or good to take a few levels in if you want some quick fighter-oriented feats, but that's the end of their purpose. They're good for campaigns where you slog through lots of meat, as well, because they have longer battle endurance than casters. I'd still just rather have a cleric or druid tanking, however.
--- End quote ---
It sounds to me like a lot of this comes down to the campaign you're playing in. What's your wizard going to do when ambushed or otherwise not allowed to prep (happened in the last two encounters in the campaign I'm playing in). What's your wizard going to do when the enemy has hella spell resistance (last encounter). Fighters are good in different situations from wizards. If you're at range with a good meat shield, then yeah, you're right, you're going to win with a caster.
As for "they hit things until they die", three of the 5 things you mentioned in your list are nonfatal; quite useful when you need to catch a fleeing person and interrogate them. High strength is useful for climbing, swimming, opening, breaking things, etc... High HP lets them take point in case of ambush, or a trap the rogue missed (and the DCs on decent traps are so high, they will be missed), or to cover the squishy caster behind them. High fortitude saves cover those pesky death spells and poisons (Rogues are just no fun as a caster, and Assassins even less so). Along more campaign-specific lines, there's certainly a long history of warrior cultures who would respect a fighter and fear/hate/scorn a wizard (just as there's plenty of examples of magocracies that feel the opposite way).
As for mirror image, buffed AC, and DR, well, let's see... generously speaking* you'll have about 20 AC or so at mid levels, and certainly not more than 10 DR. Honestly not that hard to get through either of those, and you don't have much HP to back it up. To deal with the mirror image, we'll whirlwind attack and/or cleave. For mind-affecting spells, protection from evil does a great job, and is not that difficult to get a means of using.
All that said, I play casters myself. Generally not your typical combat power caster though. My last character was a cleric/fleshwarper focused entirely on self buffs (died on Friday, largely due to not getting prep time :/ ). The one before that was a pacifist sorcerer/bard.
*this is assuming a non-munchkin wizard of course, and campaign power levels similar to what I'm used to. I'm sure it's possible to build one that throws these numbers way off.
bryanthelion:
I hate alignment.
I'm more of an actor when it comes to DnD. If there wasnt an element of acting, I probably wouldnt love it as much as I do. Alignment just soils that. Its like a cage, I feel confined to the alignment. I feel as though I cant do things my character would do in certain situations. I feel that ever so present alignment breathing down my neck, "Dont kill him even though he threatened your group thousands of times, bring him into the city so the justice system could deal with him!" Alignments are only good for extra spells for clerics, nothing more. If they take out the class features then I'd say "To hell with alignments! Just make a consistent character instead" I hear they are putting a whole page in background in the new Character sheets. Adjectives to describe your character, history, demeanor, looks. This will work better then an alignment system.
Narr:
--- Quote from: Catfish_Man on 11 Feb 2008, 07:23 ---It sounds to me like a lot of this comes down to the campaign you're playing in. What's your wizard going to do when ambushed or otherwise not allowed to prep (happened in the last two encounters in the campaign I'm playing in). What's your wizard going to do when the enemy has hella spell resistance (last encounter). Fighters are good in different situations from wizards. If you're at range with a good meat shield, then yeah, you're right, you're going to win with a caster.
As for "they hit things until they die", three of the 5 things you mentioned in your list are nonfatal; quite useful when you need to catch a fleeing person and interrogate them. High strength is useful for climbing, swimming, opening, breaking things, etc... High HP lets them take point in case of ambush, or a trap the rogue missed (and the DCs on decent traps are so high, they will be missed), or to cover the squishy caster behind them. High fortitude saves cover those pesky death spells and poisons (Rogues are just no fun as a caster, and Assassins even less so). Along more campaign-specific lines, there's certainly a long history of warrior cultures who would respect a fighter and fear/hate/scorn a wizard (just as there's plenty of examples of magocracies that feel the opposite way).
As for mirror image, buffed AC, and DR, well, let's see... generously speaking* you'll have about 20 AC or so at mid levels, and certainly not more than 10 DR. Honestly not that hard to get through either of those, and you don't have much HP to back it up. To deal with the mirror image, we'll whirlwind attack and/or cleave. For mind-affecting spells, protection from evil does a great job, and is not that difficult to get a means of using.
All that said, I play casters myself. Generally not your typical combat power caster though. My last character was a cleric/fleshwarper focused entirely on self buffs (died on Friday, largely due to not getting prep time :/ ). The one before that was a pacifist sorcerer/bard.
*this is assuming a non-munchkin wizard of course, and campaign power levels similar to what I'm used to. I'm sure it's possible to build one that throws these numbers way off.
--- End quote ---
There's plenty of instant-cast spells and I'm a fan of keeping some of my higher level spell slots open to either Quicken Spell or Silent Spell, depending. Nothing like having a rogue drop out on you from nowhere, just to see you Quicken Haste yourself and sprint away. As for spell resistance, it's a nightmare to overcome but it's possible. There's lots of spells that lower enemy spell resistance. I had to do that once because the DM got tired of me outthinking his rogues so he decided the main baddies for our campaign were Drow at the last minute (I love DMs that adapt). When every single monster you encounter has SR, it's pretty rough. Not having a lot of time to rest hurt, too. It was the druid's glory moment, as he'd just turn into a bear or worse and maul everything that came against us until we finally had a spot to rest. Pretty fun campaign, if you ask me.
I don't do the typical power caster, either, just as an FYI. My opposed schools are usually conjuration or evocation, which is where most the big damage spells. If I have to take another (say, that one time I was a Thayvian wizard), it's usually necromancy. I love me some enchantment spells. Nothing like being a high level red wizard enchanter to just lob around Hiss of Sleep over and over and over again, watching hordes of enemies fall asleep in front of you, allowing your team to finish them off without much of a hassle.
I suppose the biggest thing about the changes that worries me is the whole defined roles they're planning. I don't like that because, basically, I hate relying on other people when it comes to online games. (In person, it really doesn't matter what anyone is because the DM is going to make things work for you, and it's usually really fun and funny.) One of the reasons I liked Baldur's Gate so much is that it was fun Multiplayer, because the game was fun Single Player. It just made it so you didn't have to control the whole team. Once you start making it so everyone is controlling their one guy who has their one role, it'll be Molten Core all over again.
Border Reiver:
Dan , things have changed since the late 80s and AD&D.
Looks like the same acrimony that has accompanied the changes Warhammer Fantasy from ed to edition lives in the other realms of geekdom as well.
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