Fun Stuff > CHATTER
Shit, meet fan
RedLion:
I'm glad Kosovo is independent.
That said, I'm concerned that Russia is going to follow through on what it's promised to do in retaliation: support the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia, which is one of the few (relative) success stories of the former USSR, and could be now torn apart if that Russian support translates to arms shipments and diplomatic recognition of their independence.
Of course, that reeks of a double standard for the Russians: why are the Ossetian and Abhkaz claims for independence from Georgia tenable, but those of Chechnya and Ingushetia--Russia's own separatist enclaves--not?
--- Quote from: bbqrocks on 17 Feb 2008, 15:32 ---And as to the person who mentioned kurds before, I think they should get their own country, because I met a kurdish guy once and he was the nicest guy ever. He taught me some folk songs, I think they were from iraq...
--- End quote ---
...Yeah, because that's a great reason to randomly make another country. They already have a de-facto state in northern Iraq. That's all they need. I'm sympathetic towards the Turks on this issue: Turkey's territorial integrity should not be questioned. They've had 30,000 of their soldiers and civlians killed in the last 30 years by Kurdish Separatist Groups.
We can't just have an independent country for every ethnic group. It's unrealistic. Kosovo deserves independence because Serbia has proven that it cannot be trusted to rule the land after its pogrom and ethnic cleansing in 1999. But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
KvP:
--- Quote from: Whipstitch on 17 Feb 2008, 15:29 ---Yeah, I don't know what the big deal is with the whole nationalism thing, but historically promises of greatness and stability has almost always trumped tolerance and equal representation.
--- End quote ---
Among other things, it's why Europe isn't currently being ruled by churches. Nationalism allowed secular power to subvert church power, and in doing so made it possible for, say, a catholic and a protestant to be considered equal under the law and both considered citizens, and created the pluralism we enjoy today. Before the nation state, people identified themselves by language and religion (things people still hate each other over, but arguably not as much as they used to). Nowadays region is an important part as well. It hasn't worked in places where it's been imposed (Africa, India / Pakistan, etc.) but it's worked out fine for the West, all things considered. It's still far from perfect, as these conflicts have shown, and equality is always being threatened.
Not to be too off-topic, but
--- Quote from: RedLion on 17 Feb 2008, 18:50 --- But while Turkey has in the past sought to stifle the Kurds' sense of self, they've never engaged in slaughter or physical repression of them, while the Kurds have been massacring Turks for decades. Sorry, but I don't think the Kurds have a case in this one.
--- End quote ---
So you would support an Armenian state, then? Or a Kurdish state within Iraq? Do you support Israel? Your support of Turkey's "territorial integrity" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.
KharBevNor:
Because the Turks have shown the Kurds nothing but sweetness and light, oh the ungrateful swines.
The Balkans is one of those awkward places, like Ireland, Palestine and portions of Africa, where otherwise forgotten wars, and shitty decisions by long-dead cigar smoking assholes have created an almost unsolvable political clusterfuck. There are ethnic groups who really shouldn't be there, and borders where there shouldn't be. Unfortunately by now this post-imperial fallout has been allowed to fester to the point where just re-drawing the borders or re-locating certain groups is both impossible and unethical. Really the best solution would probably be a federal Yugoslavia in which each state had a degree of devolved n regional autonomy, with ethnic power-sharing built into the constitution. However, by this point, everyone pretty much hates everyone else way too much for that to be feasible, plus those ethnic power-sharing dealies never really work out (it was tried in either yugoslavia or serbia before I think. The Lebanon also has a similiar set-up, and look at the problems they have). Of course, what would really probably be the best thing for the region is if the EU and Russia could both just leave them the fuck alone, though that's hardly likely to happen.
I think the real clincher here will be what happens to the Serbian minority within Kosovo. The moment tensions flare and they start getting picked on or victimised in any way then bad, bad things will probably happen. Unfortunately, the trigger for this will probably be a minority of Serbian assholes resorting to political violence.
Le sigh.
Alex C:
--- Quote from: Kid van Pervert on 18 Feb 2008, 00:59 ---Among other things, it's why Europe isn't currently being ruled by churches. Nationalism allowed secular power to subvert church power, and in doing so made it possible for, say, a catholic and a protestant to be considered equal under the law and both considered citizens, and created the pluralism we enjoy today. Before the nation state, people identified themselves by language and religion (things people still hate each other over, but arguably not as much as they used to). Nowadays region is an important part as well. It hasn't worked in places where it's been imposed (Africa, India / Pakistan, etc.) but it's worked out fine for the West, all things considered. It's still far from perfect, as these conflicts have shown, and equality is always being threatened.
--- End quote ---
Well, I meant the excesses of nationalism, really; the stuff that is borderline fascist (which is definitely something the Serbs could be accused of, with their expansionist leanings and Radical party). For example, how Napolean managed to convince his military and the French peasantry that making him emperor would be a great idea even if they had ostensibly been fighting for a republic because Napolean promised that he'd take France farther than it'd ever been. That kind of thing. I'm still just not really a big fan of nationalism; it's replaces one restrictive category that excludes people with another, slightly more inclusive category that excludes people. Conflict comes up regardless though, so I suppose all things considered it's been a net benefit, but sometimes it's hard to see that in the midst of some of the silly bullshit people end up killing eachother over.
doombilly:
Interesting how every nation with a concern over their own separatist issues does not support an independent Kosovo. China and Russia are both against it. That does not bode well for Kosovo.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version