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onewheelwizzard:
I'll join my voice to those saying that pot doesn't remove your control over yourself nearly as much as alcohol.

From a standpoint of physical coordination, you have to be REALLY stoned before you start losing motor control.  Like, more stoned than is even close to reasonable.  It barely ever happens, in my experience.  Drunk people are often liable to at least be clumsy, and sometimes be outright falling over themselves, but the only way I've seen people get that stoned is by eating too many brownies, and that generally just results in being locked to the couch anyway.  You're almost certainly not going to accidentally injure yourself (and I know there are several people here who have stories about doing that while drunk, I certainly do).

A step up from simple motor control is fine-tuned coordination (like riding a bike or driving a car) and again, being stoned doesn't impair you nearly as much as being drunk.  I can ride a unicycle with one foot while stoned completely out of my head, and I can barely get on the thing while drunk.  I'm also OK with riding shotgun with a stoned driver ... I've been driven around by stoned friends on many occasions, and they and just about everyone else I've ever talked to about it says that being high just makes you concentrate more.  Here's a video that gives a good perspective on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJx0GqR3P_o

Somehow, though, I don't think this is necessarily what people are worried about when they talk about "losing control of themselves" ... enough people have horror stories about making huge mistakes while under the influence that any sort of inebriation or intoxication suggests to people that they might do something they will regret if they alter their mind.  Clearly, saying that this will always happen is as foolish as saying that it will never happen ... but again, in my personal experience, weed doesn't impair judgment the same way alcohol does.  I mean, it is capable of reducing inhibitions, in a certain way.  But I wouldn't characterize it the same way.  It's definitely a personal thing, so I'm not going to say anything definite, but ... well, I can't remember any time off the top of my head when I or anyone I know has looked back at a terrible decision thinking "Oh man, I can't believe I did that ... I was so stoned, I didn't know what was going on, what was I thinking?"  I think it's safe to say that pot does not cloud a person's judgment to any unsettling, unsafe, or scary extent, but your mileage may vary, so it's a good idea to be in a familiar setting and around people you trust if you're going to smoke or otherwise ingest weed, at least until you're comfortable with what being stoned is like.

Basically, if you are thinking about using THC to alter your mind, here is what you can probably expect: disturbance in time perception, a higher sensitivity for the absurd, a heightened appreciation for art and music (or, to use less loaded language, a tendency to let yourself focus on a piece or art or music rather more exclusively and intently than you otherwise would ... whether this is "appreciation" obviously depends on whether or not you actually enjoy what you're paying attention to), some muddling of the thoughts (or alternately, increased clarity, depending on what you're thinking about), and some interesting sensory feelings that will almost certainly be pleasant (feeling "floaty" is common).  It can act as a social lubricant and make your more talky and friendly, or it can draw you inward and just make you think a lot and not really interact with people very much ... a lot of people don't like it because they tend to react in the latter fashion, but I rather like smoking on my own and enjoying that aspect of it, especially right before bed.  People also say that pot makes you paranoid, which I have only found to be true in a very small minority of situations, but it's certainly possible (especially if you're not really familiar with the drug) ... overall I'd call it a bit of a myth but every so often I find a little truth to it.

Things not to expect: blurry vision, slurred speech, poor motor control, and a hangover.  You might make just as much of a fool of yourself as if you were drunk, but it'll be a much safer and friendlier foolishness (you probably won't be really offensive without realizing it, just really silly) and you'll probably be quite conscious of how silly you look and laugh along with everyone.

Maybe this will help people understand why so many folks prefer weed to alcohol.  I certainly do.

idiolect:
No no no no no no.  Seriously guys, please do not get into cars with stoned drivers, or let your friends drive around stoned, (British youtube videos aside).  It's totally beside the point here whether or not it's worse or different or whatever than other intoxicants, it's still an intoxicant that pretty manifestly interferes with your ability to operate heavy machinery.  Please, please do not do this  :|

Nodaisho:
Yeah... maybe you are right, onewheel, but I am not letting someone I know to be under the influence of just about anything drive me around, whether it is alcohol, weed, hallucinogens (definitely not hallucinogens), or even just being too tired. I might be more careful than I need to be, but I would rather be more careful than I need to be than not careful enough.

onewheelwizzard:
I know better than to get into a car with someone who's been drinking, and there was one time that I was forced into a situation in which I was in a car and everyone including the driver was tripping, and that was a terrible idea as well and we all knew it and we all breathed a huge collective sigh of relief when we got home and agreed never to do anything like it again.  Never do either of those things, ever.  Also, I would actually say that sleep deprivation is considerably more dangerous than marijuana when it comes to driving, so avoid that too.

But in all seriousness!  Maybe I just hang out with a lot of huge stoners (true story, come to think of it) but in my experience, someone who has been smoking pot (and nothing else) is generally good to drive (and furthermore, will know if they're not).  This is assuming I trust their driving skill to begin with!  Some people I know can't drive no matter what.  But if I trust someone to drive safely under normal circumstances, and I have recently smoked with them, and both of us have a good idea of how altered we are, and my trustworthy friend tells me "I am capable of driving you wherever we need to go, despite that joint we just smoked," and I say "Are you sure?" and they say "Yes, I am sure," I will get in the car with them.

I definitely think people need to have smoked a lot of weed in their life before they can know that they're good to drive after smoking.  If you don't have a lot of familiarity with being high, I wouldn't trust you to operate machinery in that state.  But people who smoke a lot as part of their lifestyle are generally quite comfortable with being stoned in general and it really does not interfere with their ability to function completely normally.  I think you'd be absolutely amazed at the number of people who drive around safely after (or even during) smoking weed.  Yes, there are incidents in which someone has smoked AND drank, or a 17-year-old who has only been high once or twice smokes too much, and in situations like that, the driver is absolutely impaired to the point of being a danger on the road.  But for the most part, stoned drivers almost unanimously drive more slowly and carefully and with more intent focus than sober drivers.  I've been passed too many joints in too many passenger seats to make a blanket statement saying that all stoned people are incapable of driving safely.  Shit, I've known people who can roll, light, and smoke a joint while driving and STILL drive better than most people I know throughout the whole process.

Basically the biggest risk in driving stoned is getting lost.  Obeying traffic laws correctly and not crashing into anything won't be hard, but knowing where you're going might be a challenge.  (Again, though, I can't stress enough that this only becomes true through a long history of being comfortable with being high.  Sure, there are people who are high all day long from the moment they wake up and still drive to work every day without even the slightest trouble, but the reason they can drive high without trouble is that they're high so often.  You could reasonably say that the safety of driving stoned is a direct function of the THC tolerance of the driver.)

dennis:

--- Quote from: Switchblade on 14 Mar 2008, 02:48 ---I'm just passing on what I've been told, by people and sources that I trust implicitly (and with good reason), and what I've experienced for myself. Although you can't cite anecdotal evidence in a research paper, it really ought not to be discounted in this kind of a discussion because it's being used to underpin valid points.

My own experience and research tells me that Marijuana is Bad, Alcohol is Not Bad (it's not necessarily Good, but few things are).  Clearly you have arrived at a different conclusion, and I suspect that there's little I can do to change your mind.

--- End quote ---
Switchblade, supporting an argument on anecdotal evidence is like trying to float a pebble on water. Sure, if you give it enough spin in the right direction, you can make it skip along the surface for a while, but it eventually sinks.

Notice how your trust in your sources is the reason you think we can't discount your points, but think more on it: how can you expect us to have similar trust in you? Your own experience is a fine reason to make a decision for yourself, but I, for one, know that personal experiences are subject to self-deception (rationalizing) and illusion.

It's not that you can't change my mind, but that my mind won't be changed just because you say so. You'll need some real evidence.


--- Quote from: Switchblade ---You've misinterpreted me here, I'm afraid. I was actually refuting the argument that medical groups are biased by pharmaceutical corporations giving them money, not supporting it. My argument was "Even if that is the case, it cannot be the case in this situation because there is no drug for them to push that has any effect". Maybe the tone was cynical, but it certainly wasn't meant to be in support of the statement that


--- Quote from: SonofZ3 on 13 Mar 2008, 14:02 ---If you think doctors don't push drugs to get money from big pharmaceutical companies then you're living in imaginary land my friend. At least here in the U.S. medical organizations and care providers get BIG MONEY for pushing certain drugs.
--- End quote ---
.

I agree with you, dennis, that this statement is incredibly cynical and insulting to the profession of medicine.

--- End quote ---
What are you afraid of?

Anyway, my apologies, I did misinterpret your statement.


--- Quote from: Switchblade, in a later post ---See, this is the problem - Alcohol gets you killed quickly, weed doesn't. What it instead does is cause long-term health problems that don't show up until years or even decades later. I'd wager that the percentage of cancer-related deaths that were ultimately triggered by marijuana use is surprisingly high, for example.

The thing is, this serves to camouflage the risk it poses. Because it's not an immediate and obvious cause of death, it's easy to overlook.

--- End quote ---
It's also easy to pretend that cannabis has long-term risks that haven't come up yet. Also, if alcohol kills you quickly, why is alcohol "Not Bad"?


--- Quote ---Besides (this is purely my opinion this time, I have little to no evidence to back it up)
--- End quote ---

It's been your opinion (and the opinions that you are repeating, there isn't really a difference) this whole time!


--- Quote ---I reckon that the major reason that alcohol is such a big cause of death in the States is at least partially founded in the country's attitude towards it. If you treat Alcohol as this Big Bad Scary Thing that should be avoided, Then the attitude towards it shifts. Round here, a single beer at lunchtime is nothing out of the ordinary (assuming you're having it as part of a meal, at least). On the other hand, from what I gather in certain social circles in the US, drinking quite often revolves around getting as drunk as possible as quickly as possible. I bet if you study the demographic of alcohol-related deaths, you'll discover a pattern - the vast majority will be in their early 20's, having only just been introduced to legal drinking, been thrust in at the deep end, and wound up doing something very dumb (like drinking waaaay too much) because they just didn't know how to cope.
--- End quote ---
Binge drinking happens everywhere.


--- Quote ---Alcohol generally only kills people because they get stupid when they drink too much of it. That's not an inherent flaw with the drink, rather the flaw belongs to the way people treat the drink and handle its effects. Weed, on the other hand, does Bad Stuff to you even when you don't have a lot of it. It won't (usually) make you do stupid stuff, sure, but it will inevitably affect your health in the long term - Alcohol only does that if you don't handle it responsibly and drink far too much.
--- End quote ---
Alcohol will kill people directly if they drink too much of it. It's called alcohol poisoning and it makes up a large fraction of alcohol-related deaths. This is not to mention diseases like cirrhosis of the liver which can be caused by alcohol, and other less obvious damage caused by the drug.

True, every time cannabis is smoked, some tar is deposited in the lungs, your teeth get a little dirtier, and you expose yourself to a lot of possibly nasty chemicals. However, these are the negative health effects of smoking, which is only one of the many ways cannabis may be used. I have no problem with the statement that smoking causes health problems. It does.

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