Fun Stuff > CHATTER
patriotism/nationalism
öde:
--- Quote from: Vendetagainst on 09 Aug 2008, 17:47 ---I was just saying that America is not just the single, transparent society that [I feel that] Khar made it out to be. Just stop trying to make everything a comparison, it's unproductive.
--- End quote ---
I think you have to explain it a little better than that, with evidence and such because I don't see how it isn't. It's unproductive to just state a point, you have to back it up a bit or slow people like me won't get it.
RedLion:
--- Quote from: KharBevNor on 09 Aug 2008, 17:50 ---I remember reading an op-ed piece in support of that French ruling by a female muslim minister in the French government.
There's like, one muslim in congress?
Anyway, where's the magical place in America where there's no racism?
--- End quote ---
Did I say there was a place in America where there was no Racism? No. I didn't. But you were going on as if Europe is so much less racist and more open-minded. And that's bullshit. People in Europe--and that includes Britain--are just as xenophobic and racist and the average American is.
--- Quote from: öde on 09 Aug 2008, 17:34 ---
--- Quote from: RedLion on 09 Aug 2008, 17:22 ---Note that I actually think that ruling was semi-smart.
--- End quote ---
Really? You think that people shouldn't be made citizens because of what they wear?
--- End quote ---
No, not necessarily, but I don't think it's brilliant to be making people citizens who have no interest at all in the culture or way of life of your country. I don't think that's racist. Maybe xenophobic. But it seems like you're asking for large trouble if you just say "everyone come on and you won't have to make any attempt to learn the language or assimilate into society," and France already has a problem with unassimilated Muslim/African youths in Marseilles and the ghettos of Paris.
jhocking:
ALERT ALERT
THREAD GOING DOWNHILL CAPN
TOO POLITICAL
ADDITION: To try to be constructive I suppose I'll elaborate on why I've sounded the alert. The thread was tense at times but no biggie for the first three pages, but this last page has been straight shouting back and forth. Instead of arguing about whether or not America is racist, how about we get back on topic?
mooface:
--- Quote from: KharBevNor on 09 Aug 2008, 17:50 ---Anyway, where's the magical place on earth where there's no racism?
--- End quote ---
Vendetagainst:
--- Quote from: öde on 09 Aug 2008, 17:59 ---
--- Quote from: Vendetagainst on 09 Aug 2008, 17:47 ---I was just saying that America is not just the single, transparent society that [I feel that] Khar made it out to be. Just stop trying to make everything a comparison, it's unproductive.
--- End quote ---
I think you have to explain it a little better than that, with evidence and such because I don't see how it isn't. It's unproductive to just state a point, you have to back it up a bit or slow people like me won't get it.
--- End quote ---
Fine.
First of all, no well established society is going to single-faceted. Even in a place where legitimate self-expression is extremely dangerous (such as North Korea) I believe that there is going to be some cultural variation. What I mean by "I believe" will be explained in a minute.
Something you need to realize is that a person simply cannot fully understand a culture until they've embraced it, as far as I'm concerned it is impossible. The mainstream media is no representation of real life or thoughts, I have no idea what it is other then a vanilla brainfuck that allows even the most incompetent person to sit down and have something to stare at while he dies.
As a species thrives it branches out and changes, this is evolution. With a culture it is no different; two people within the same culture will separate and facilitate change just as two organisms will. When a foreign idea enters a populace it is either embraced or rejected, and when embraced it changes both itself and its environment.
Consider also that America has been tremendously influenced by other cultures. People have called it the melting pot. My great grandparents were almost certainly involved in the Herrin massacre, but you don't know what that is, of course. Herrin has spent the entire time since that event trying to make up for it, and for that reason (on top of being one of the most friendly and welcoming places around) I don't think that today it has any true parallel. It is not any particularly special place, but if you just consider how immensely that single event changed the town, and then think that thousands of other remote towns have been made unique by their own history, I think that it's only fair to say that nowhere in the world is going to be exactly what an outsider thinks it is.
If you're willing to say that America is basically what you perceive it to be then you have no place suggesting that any other stereotype is invalid. Is England a place where everybody sits around drinking tea and eating crumpets and being ridiculously prudent and mannersome? Fuck no, of course not, some things really are not as simple as they appear.
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