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patriotism/nationalism
tommydski:
--- Quote from: Hat on 10 Aug 2008, 10:04 ---The problem being that some people interpret the melting pot idea as meaning "leave your old culture at the door, you're an AMERICAN now", and not understanding the point of the melting pot is to create a society where all cultures can mingle together. It's entirely common, at least in Australia for people to use the term assimilate to criticize the desire for immigrants to maintain their ethnic identity.
--- End quote ---
This strikes me as the most sensible and compelling response in the thread thus far. I completely agree. So strange, this division of the new and old world. The former is in theory a recreation of the latter across the sea but most people seem content to ignore this.
I know from experience that everyone hates it when I get needlessly Debordian but I can't help but think the existing stereotypes of new world patriotism/nationalism are the hallmarks of the spectacular. The culture of those who occupy the new world has been compartmentalised in the face of the new mythology as dictated by the mass media. This could explain why whenever I go to the US I can never find any Americans as they are often represented as a cultural archetype. To me it always seems like more Europeans, Asians and Africans who happen to live across a significant body of water. The 'new' culture is young enough to be based near enough entirely on commodity fetishism and appropriately it comes across as somewhat inauthentic to independent observers like KharBevNor.
It's a classic hallmark of Capitalism and I think it's also a trend set to continue as the world does develop into a global mentality. In fact, it's probably a crucial stage in this process, the abandonment of heritage and the adoption of a newer, streamlined society fixated on the present rather than the past. In this manner the idea of distinct Nationalities can be gradually dismantled in the face of a sort of all-encompassing cultural hegemony. Naturally, as someone who is on the beneficial end of Capitalism, it doesn't bother me in particular.
waterloosunset:
--- Quote from: Hat on 10 Aug 2008, 10:04 ---
The problem being that some people interpret the melting pot idea as meaning "leave your old culture at the door, you're an AMERICAN now",
--- End quote ---
Surely in America it was always that way? Italians, Irish, Germans etc in the late 19th/early 20th century came over and were encouraged to "Americanise", so second generations onwards lost the old ways of their ancestry and spoke english, drove big cars, ate apple pie, played baseball etc. Give the hispanics a couple of generations and it'll be the same with them, completly immersed in the mainstream. Of course there will always be a few who don't change, but on the whole they'll be considered American, not Latino
Leinad:
--- Quote from: KharBevNor on 09 Aug 2008, 15:59 ---
What I'm objecting to is the painting of America as some sort of halcyon utopia where people of all creeds and colours are welcome and treated as equals. Bullshit!
Then he trotted out all this absurd jerking off on the fucking stars and stripes land of the free bullshit. Tell it to the fucking Sioux.
--- End quote ---
First, a piece of advice: If you are European do not bring history into this. Just don't do it. You have the longest history of racism, bigotry, and waging war under false pretences. If you think that is American arrogance, you are probably right, but it is arrogance through only being a disphit for 200 years, rather than 1000.
Second of all, no one paints America as a Utopia (l2use halcyon right), and what is wrong with believing that a certain country is better? We don't blame you for not being born here, but we just want you to know that you could have tried a little harder during conception.
Slick:
--- Quote from: Leinad on 10 Aug 2008, 14:21 ---We don't blame you for not being born here, but we just want you to know that you could have tried a little harder during conception.
--- End quote ---
Man, is that a bad joke or are you a giant ass?
My thoughts on Nationalism/Patriotism: Fuck the notion that your ancestors matter. Live your life today with the people around you. Fuck the thought that you have any intrinsic prestige or dishonour from the past. Live your life in the world you are in today and do what you can not to fuck other people's shit up. Everyone has the time in their life to realize what's good and bad about their past and to not do it in the present.
Slick:
--- Quote from: Leinad on 10 Aug 2008, 14:21 ---First, a piece of advice: If you are European do not bring history into this. Just don't do it. You have the longest history of racism, bigotry, and waging war under false pretences. If you think that is American arrogance, you are probably right, but it is arrogance through only being a disphit for 200 years, rather than 1000.
--- End quote ---
Maybe I am just angrier than I used to be, but fuck this sentiment. Every nation has a shit load of bad stuff in their past.
History is great. It really is. It's an amazing fruitful source of intellectual and academic discourse, and it's invaluable in helping us figure out what to do with our future and avoid the mistakes of the past.
Debating about history as though it means anything today is kind of fucked, as I see it, though. I was born under thirty years ago. I've got mixed blood from many cultures. I don't see why ancient grudges mean shit. There are a whole bunch of people on this planet and we are all trying to live right now.
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