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patriotism/nationalism
jhocking:
Well I see an important distinction between patriotism and nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism
The difference is rather subtle. Basically, nationalism is a sort of indoctrinated territorial behavior. In it's milder forms (ie. nations have a right to exist) I think nationalism is a good thing really, but in it's more extreme forms nationalism often amounts to bigotry (eg. thinly veiled racism.) In all cases, the exclusionary aspects of nationalism don't sit well with me. For example, for all of it's justifications and the very real need to manage the flow of immigrants, the border fence is about cementing the distinction between "us" and "them." How ironic when the United States itself only exists because of land grabs that had nothing to do with any nationalist claims.
Patriotism however doesn't necessarily go along with ownership over territory. Patriotism is about cultural pride, and loving the ideals of your country. Patriotism is an attachment to people and ideas, whereas nationalism is about who owns what. To really understand the distinction, think about the Revolutionary War; George Washington was about as patriotic as you can get, and yet he was patriotic toward a country that didn't even exist yet.
While I don't experience much nationalism, I do consider myself fairly patriotic. I cherish the values of this country, feel pride in the achievements of my countrymen, and consider myself an American; I love to travel around the country and see the beauty of it, but I feel no ownership over any of these places. I think incidentally these distinctions are where all the "if you hate this country then move" kinda stuff misses the mark. I love my country, I just don't feel much attachment to any particular piece of dirt.
Whether or not these attitudes are because I was born in another country and lived overseas for most of my childhood is an open question, but obviously any person's upbringing has a massive effect on their outlook.
At that, I suppose it is interesting to consider the notion of nationalism in the context of my birthplace of Korea, a country artificially divided by extreme differences in political ideology. I mean, how much respect can you have for the idea of national borders when your own borders were drawn up within the last 60 years? And whatever your feelings about national borders, aren't you still a patriot if you feel pride in your country?
This also brings up a territorial dispute currently going on between South Korea and Japan. Both nations claim ownership of the tiny island of Dokto:
http://son-of-gadfly-on-the-wall.blogspot.com/2008/07/my-response-to-south-korean-perspective.html
I'm not sure what exactly this dispute suggests, but it is certainly relevant.
imapiratearg:
I talk about leaving the country fairly regularly, if that gives you any idea of how patriotic I am. Blind patriotism also makes me want to vomit.
blankfile:
--- Quote from: negative creep on 24 Jul 2008, 07:02 ---Personally, I believe that nationalism is a reason for quite a lot of bad things that happened throughout history and continue to happen even today. I think that it is necessary for us, as mankind, to take what i believe to be an important step inthe development of civilisation, and finally leave nationalism behind.
Other than that, I probably won't say anything here. I also think that this is a pretty dangerous topic.
--- End quote ---
Negative creep stole my words. Just to add a slight bit more, i have started a bit of a game wrapped around this topic. Whenever someone ask me where i live, where i'm from, or from which country i am a citizen of, my first answer is now always "I'm a citizen of the world, i live wherever i want to". Usually, the standard reaction to that is nervous laughter, followed by a very tense silence. And the silence continues when they realize i am not even joking about it.
But yeah, usually i would try to avoid the subject, people tend to dislike what i have to say this matter.
jhocking:
I like to lead people on a wild goose chase when they ask where I'm from. I suppose it's a little anti-social, but I get a kick out of how I can answer with a different place each time they attempt to clarify the question.
Where were you born? South Korea.
Where did you grow up? Connecticut.
Where do you live? Chicago.
Lines:
There are very few things that I find good about nationalism/patriotism and those few things all happened through the arts. But that's it, really
I am not very patriotic and I'm not nationalistic at all. I like living in America most of the time, but I'm rather upset with how this country goes about doing things and how it's obsessed with being #1. I don't really have much to say on this subject, because I'm just too apathetic about it. The only thing I really like about my country is traveling to places I haven't been.
(Edit because I got the two backwards.)
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