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McTaggart:

--- Quote from: Leinad on 04 Aug 2008, 11:41 ---No no no, guys, i believe you misunderstand me. I wouldn't go around ganking people lower than me,
--- End quote ---

Sorry to single out this one thing, but I find it funny how everyone always reverts to this. It's not really an important distinction. Either way you're disrupting someone else's whatever-they're-doing.

Full disclosure: I play eve, a game where loss hurts as badly as you let it, and I'll hunt down anything I think I can kill. Half the time it's dirty unfair ganks, the other half of the time I fall for some trap or bite off more than I can chew and it's unfair the other way. Why? Sometimes I can make a profit off it, sometimes it's vengeance, sometimes it's because my corpmates will give me shit for not as ruthless as I can be and sometimes it's simply skulls for the skull throne (or rather corpses for the corpse hangar). Do I feel bad about it after the fact? Sometimes.

In eve at least you can minimise the risk of people ganking and scamming and cheating you. I'm sure this is possible in wow as well; if you don't want to be disrupted in your playing to be disrupted by griefers and gankers, take the steps you can to avoid them. You consent to pvp by playing the game.

Ozymandias:
See, here's the thing though:

In WoW, there is no tangible loss to being ganked, nor is there tangible gain to doing so. The person killed doesn't lose XP or gold or even item durability. The person killing doesn't get XP or honor or gold. There is no outcome of someone sitting at a graveyard and killing people 40 levels below them when they rez except that they are doing it just to fuck with a dude. It's just being an asshole, no other reason.

I agree that you consent to PvP when you play on a PvP server, if it were limited to in-range PvP. If you are doing thing sin contested territory and someone a couple of levels above comes and kills you, well you should've been prepared, but you also could've put up enough of a fight to escape or even turn the tables and kill him. If a group of them comes and kill you, well that's the breaks, but you can still, in theory, escape with most classes if you see them coming. In either instance, there is some tangible benefit to them having attacked you (in the form of an honorable world PvP kill and the fact that you're doing quests in the same place they are and possibly even very similar ones) and it's just a hazard of the PvP environment. Honorable world PvP is excellent. I have enjoyed it on many occasions.

Furthermore, in Eve, it's actually entirely possible to succeed without entering low security zones and avoid PvP. It's low risk, low reward, but it's an option. This is not the case in WoW. After the first 20 levels, moving to PvP zones is required to simply progress through the game. There is no PvE option unless you just play a straight up PvE realm.

Honestly, there should've been a penalty for killing underleveled characters in contested areas in WoW. It just would've made sense. If dudes want to have an epic lvl 70 PvP brawl, that's what city raids are for.

est:
Ozy's just laid out my thoughts on the matter pretty well, especially in the first paragraph.

Also though, back in Everquest PvP you lost XP, gold and on some servers one item per death.  Corpse-camping was a pretty big deal and you could be banned for it if reported & caught.  There was a tangible gain for killing other players though, in the form of the gold and item you looted from them.  Some items were marked as NOLOOT if I recall right, but they were only high-level special items.

The gain was there, but there was also a fear of retaliation/official reprimand keeping most people from being pricks to one another.  In WoW that doesn't exist, so people are free to be cocks to one another with impunity.

Leinad:

--- Quote from: McTaggart on 06 Aug 2008, 14:22 ---Sorry to single out this one thing, but I find it funny how everyone always reverts to this. It's not really an important distinction. Either way you're disrupting someone else's whatever-they're-doing.

--- End quote ---

Which is kind of the point... if you are on a PvP realm or flagged for PvP then there is really nothing wrong with it, in fact, you are INVITING it... not just allowing it. I think that is kind of like, umm, correct me if I am wrong... the whole like... point? Of PvP? Maybe?


--- Quote from: Ozymandias on 06 Aug 2008, 15:03 ---See, here's the thing though:

In WoW, there is no tangible loss to being ganked, you don't gain honor

--- End quote ---

Yes you do. You do gain honor in world PvP if they are close to your level.

And as for a penalty for killing lower levels than you, I can kind of understand that, but there are just times when it is totally fine. I mean, going out and hunting a lowbie for no reason= bad. Killing one that is messing up players on your side already, fine. And as for massive brawls, go pvp anywhere in the Outlands and you will have a couple 70's there pretty fast, and it will just build up from there. In fact you can really start full on raid groups from just a minor little fight.

Ozymandias:
Did you read the rest of what I wrote? I was clearly referring to out-of-level PvP.

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