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Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness

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Christophe:
So, I have to admit that I'm kind of a sucker for genre categorization. A fair amount of the bands I enjoy on a regular basis can probably be pigeonholed into genres like post-punk, math rock, post-rock, so on and so forth... and then there's Post-Hardcore.

If you take a look at the Wikipedia talk page for the genre's article (full disclosure: I edit this article quite a bit), there are about ten shitloads of debate about what the genre entails, and a fair amount of people claim that stuff like Scary Kids Scaring Kids, Saosin, Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, Underoath, and varied other really bad bands are part of the genre. My general problem with putting those bands under this genre is that there is virtually no influence from the older bands to the supposed newer ones. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no way to put any kind of logical lineage between, say Fugazi and these cocks. (Note to Alesana: The Icarus Line called, they want their black shirts and red ties back.) Of course, the problem is that the definition of the genre itself:


--- Quote from: Wikipedia ---Post-hardcore is typically characterized by its precise rhythms and loud guitar-based instrumentation accompanied by a combination of clean vocals and screams. Allmusic states, "These newer bands, termed post-hardcore, often found complex and dynamic ways of blowing off steam that generally went outside the strict hardcore realm of 'loud fast rules.' ... Additionally, many of these bands' vocalists were just as likely to deliver their lyrics with a whispered croon as they were a maniacal yelp."[2] The genre has developed a balance of dissonance and melody, in part channeling the loud and fast hardcore ethos into more measured, subtle forms of tension and release. Jeff Terich of Treblezine states, "Instead of sticking to [hardcore's] rigid constraints, these artists expanded beyond power chords and gang vocals, incorporating more creative outlets for punk rock energy."[4]
--- End quote ---

can be used to describe bands like Fugazi and bands like Alesana.

Even bands like Franz Ferdinand and Interpol, whatever your opinions of them, can at least point back to post-punk bands like Josef K, Gang of Four, Echo and the Bunnymen et al as influences and reference points (regardless of how well you think those influences are articulated in their music). I highly doubt that anyone in Alesana has a Fugazi album, and if they did, they were probably snorting coke off of it.

So: am I being insanely pretentious about something as completely vague as a fucking genre of music, or am I justified in claiming that people have no basis in categorizing newer so-called "post-hardcore" bands in that genre? Let's talk, people, because I am all different kinds of confused when it comes to this goddamned genre.

imapiratearg:

--- Quote from: TheLetterM on 12 Oct 2008, 10:33 ---I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no way to put any kind of logical lineage between, say Fugazi and these cocks. (Note to Alesana: The Icarus Line called, they want their black shirts and red ties back.)

--- End quote ---

Hot Cross called, they want their riffs back.

It sounds like you might be being a bit pretentious, but I am guilty of the same thing and telling people that bands like Alesana, The Used and other shitty pop punk bands that are labeled "emo" these days really aren't emo bands.

Christophe:
Yeah. I guess there's just an underlying problem in categorizing underground bands in that a lot of it is done in retrospect. It's almost never the bands that say what genre they exist in, but music journalists who need a way to categorize bands.


--- Quote from: Guy Picciotto ---I've never recognized "emo" as a genre of music. I always thought it was the most retarded term ever. I know there is this generic commonplace that every band that gets labeled with that term hates it. They feel scandalized by it. But honestly, I just thought that all the bands I played in were punk rock bands.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: Matt Sweeney ---It was invented by a friend of ours as a derogatory term for a band me and James (Lo) played in called Wider. But his whole joke is that he'd watch the song and not react at all, and then take out his calculator to figure out how good the song was. So he'd call it math rock, and it was a total diss, as it should be.
--- End quote ---

Picciotto would probably call bullshit on any discussion of terms like "post-hardcore" as well, but the fact remains that people still categorize bands into genres, no matter how undefined or nebulous or ultimately ridiculous they get.

Be My Head:
I'm going to start a Neo-Classical Post-Technical- Blackened Death Metal band

David_Dovey:
I'd like to reiterate my belief that to a certain extent, genre labels are incredibly useful. Obviously when they get any longer than five words you are probably over-thinking it and making the purpose of classifying music utterly redundant but being able to say "x band is punk rock" or "x band is death metal" is pretty good (at least as a starting point) when trying to explain what a band does to someone who otherwise has no idea.

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