Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Atheist Penelope
KeepACoolin:
--- Quote from: Delirium on 31 Aug 2009, 16:24 ---
--- Quote from: KeepACoolin on 29 Aug 2009, 12:26 ---I don't see how you can claim that C.S. Lewis can "fail logic forever"
--- End quote ---
He formulated the "Liar, Lord, or Lunatic" trilemma. Therefore, he fails logic forever.
--- End quote ---
Okay, fair enough, I thought you were referring to his conversion itself as a failure of logic. True, the trilemma is flawed, but I don't believe he truly intended it to be a complete list of all possible outcomes. I think he just meant to use it to force people to confront their own ideas about Jesus. And you have to admit that the people who drone on and on about "Well, I don't think Jesus was anything special, just a great teacher..." gets really annoying (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.JesusWasWayCool)
KeepACoolin:
--- Quote from: chronoplasm on 31 Aug 2009, 16:37 ---
--- Quote from: KeepACoolin on 29 Aug 2009, 12:26 ---B.) I don't see how you can claim that C.S. Lewis can "fail logic forever" when it is clear that atheism itself requires a leap past logic: the only position that can be 100% based on logic is agnosticism, as it is impossible to ever disprove the existence of God (how exactly would you go about proving that there can be no invisible, incorporeal being whose existence is independent of the material universe?) and probably just as impossible to ever prove that He does exist. Essentially, the only completely rational position to hold is agnosticism, with gradations in it- that is, you might be an agnostic who is virtually sure that there is a God, or an agnostic who is virtually sure that there isn't. Either of the absolute positions, theism or atheism, requires a step beyond logic. But I think that anything worth doing does. Don't get me wrong, I think atheism is, in itself, a better position to hold than agnosticism. But that is not because I believe it to be more rational.
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An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of god, not one who claims that there are no gods.
I think you will find that most atheists don't so much assert evidence against gods, but assert that there is so little evidence in favor of gods that the possibility isn't worthy of consideration.
--- End quote ---
You're twisting the meaning of the word. Atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings (Random House dictionary). Denying the existence of God is a part of what distinguishes atheism from agnosticism. Lack of belief is not the same as disbelief, which is why agnosticism is not the same as atheism.
Scarblac:
I have a question an atheism vs agnosticism. People on the Internet act as if there's a huge difference, but I was never taught these terms in school and can't figure out which one I am.
So: Let's say I make a up a creature right now; let's call it Asdfsoooxzm. It's unicorn-colored, all-powerful and lives outside this universe. Crucially, you can't prove that it doesn't exist. Neither can I; perhaps everything I can invent really does exist somewhere outside this universe.
I believe in God just as much as I believe in Asdfsoooxzm. And in other gods, for that matter.
If that belief makes me an atheist, why do people keep arguing with stuff like "A-ha! But you can't prove He doesn't exist!" when exactly the same is true of Asdfsoooxzm, and they're trying to convince me my belief in God should be different from my belief in Asdfsoooxzm?
If it makes me an agnostic, then that is really quite meaningless since I'd be mad to consider seriously the possibility that a creature I made up for a forum post actually exists. It'd be so close to atheism the difference is meaningless.
cerement:
If you believe in the Christian God, Asdfsoooxzm, AND in other gods, then that makes you a polytheist.
If you only believe in the Christian God, Asdfsoooxzm, OR in one of the other gods, then that makes you a monotheist.
An agnostic would say the Christian God, Asdfsoooxzm, and the other gods probably don't exist, but he/she is holding judgement in case proof ever does show up.
An atheist just flat out says the Christian God, Asdfsoooxzm, and the other gods are nothing more than figments of our imagination, they don't exist in any way that matters (other than as a psychological crutch to overcome our fear of the unknown). In other words, they see religion as nothing more than institutionalized superstition.
chronoplasm:
--- Quote from: KeepACoolin on 31 Aug 2009, 17:29 ---
You're twisting the meaning of the word. Atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings (Random House dictionary). Denying the existence of God is a part of what distinguishes atheism from agnosticism. Lack of belief is not the same as disbelief, which is why agnosticism is not the same as atheism.
--- End quote ---
Use of the word has changed over time from the original greek atheos which was not used to describe a philosophical or religious position but as a pejorative to refer to someone who believed in false gods. If you look in any dictionary, you may find that as the definition, or you might find the definition you provided, or you might find any other definition that you like.
You might also look up the words evolution or God and find any number of vastly different and definitions for each. It all depends on context and who you ask. For example, the term God may refer to:
The one supreme being.
One of several other divine beings.
An image, or idol.
Something that is worshipped or idealized (such as money).
Nature, or the universe (in the sense that Einstein used the word).
The thing you have to understand about dictionaries is that they are descriptive, not prescriptive.
It's perfectly acceptable to say that an atheist is simply someone who does not believe in the possibility of gods. Now, that does entail the belief that there are no gods, but that is not the be all end all of the definition.
I don't believe there are no gods, I just don't believe in gods. I don't believe that gods are possible, but that is not the same as believing that gods are impossible. It's all a matter of positive claims versus negative claims.
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