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[Surgoshan]

Helen of Troy was an obvious reference.  Everyone and his kid sister knows about Helen.  And since the movie came out?  Please!

If she wanted to sound smart (or if Jeph wanted her to sound smart) he should have had her refer to some other fought over historical woman.

Guinevere comes to mind.

[hanalways]

Um, I don't think the whole point was her to sound like she knew obscure references to history, just that she could use history in clever responses.

But yes, if her whole point was to make references no one would understand unless they had wiki in their browser, then she should have used Guinevere.

[Vendetagainst]

Surgoshan, why are you upsetting the WCT people?

They are people too.

[Mr. Skawronska]

I'm not upset.   I'm amused.

I especially liked the Medea reference considering she went mad after Jason scorned her.

I giggle at how parallel the reference is, and wonder if even Faye recognizes the similarity beyond the obvious.

S

[rynne]

Um, I don't think the whole point was her to sound like she knew obscure references to history, just that she could use history in clever responses.

No, he's absolutely right.  If you make a reference that anyone around you understands, then you LOSE AT REFERENCES.   

[Spluff]

this is known as the hipster rule

[Alex C]

Arthurian legend is hardly obscure.

[Rocketman]

Should've called her Helen of Sparta, thus showing some measure of familiarity with the story, rather than pop culture osmosis.

[Jeff7]

Helen of Troy was an obvious reference.  Everyone and his kid sister knows about Helen.  And since the movie came out?  Please!

If she wanted to sound smart (or if Jeph wanted her to sound smart) he should have had her refer to some other fought over historical woman.

Guinevere comes to mind.

Consider me then among the unwashed Philistines. I don't know much of anything about Helen of Troy (movie?), and I had to Google that Medea thing.

Now if you want to make a reference to some real culture, start quoting MST3K. 
It would please The Master.

[ladydraykona]

I'm not upset.   I'm amused.

I especially liked the Medea reference considering she went mad after Jason scorned her.

I giggle at how parallel the reference is, and wonder if even Faye recognizes the similarity beyond the obvious.

S

The Helen reference was just a set up for the Medea reference, in my opinion. It got you thinking in ancient Greek.

[Mr. Skawronska]

From Wikipedia:

The war originated from a quarrel between the goddesses Athena, Hera and Aphrodite, after Eris, the goddess of strife and discord, gave them a golden apple, sometimes known as the apple of Discord, marked "for the fairest". Zeus sent the goddesses to Paris, who judged that Aphrodite, as the "fairest", should receive the apple. In exchange, Aphrodite made Helen, the most beautiful of all women, fall in love with Paris, who took her to Troy. Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and the brother of Helen's husband Menelaus, led an expedition of Achaean troops to Troy and besieged the city for ten years. After the deaths of many heroes, including the Achaeans Achilles and Ajax, and the Trojans Hector and Paris, the city fell to the ruse of the Trojan Horse.

Helen of Troy:  "The Face that could launch a Thousand Ships."

There, now you're up to speed.

S

[JonSnow]

From Wikipedia:

The war originated from a quarrel between the goddesses Athena, Hera and Aphrodite, after Eris, the goddess of strife and discord, gave them a golden apple, sometimes known as the apple of Discord, marked "for the fairest". Zeus sent the goddesses to Paris, who judged that Aphrodite, as the "fairest", should receive the apple. In exchange, Aphrodite made Helen, the most beautiful of all women, fall in love with Paris, who took her to Troy. Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and the brother of Helen's husband Menelaus, led an expedition of Achaean troops to Troy and besieged the city for ten years. After the deaths of many heroes, including the Achaeans Achilles and Ajax, and the Trojans Hector and Paris, the city fell to the ruse of the Trojan Horse.

Helen of Troy:  "The Face that could launch a Thousand Ships."

There, now you're up to speed.

S

Well then wikipedia is wrong lol... if you read the original accounts by homeros you'll see that a sheepherder on the flanks of the Greek Mountainrange actually decided that Helen was the fairest, and gave her the golden apple. Hence Hera, who would be damned if she'd lose to a mortal made Helen madly run away to Troy. (There is no mention of an actual love between Helen and the sheppard, the love comes from the overly modernised movie, where love HAD to be the driving force... Athena, who in her wisdom was a fair loser decided to support the Greeks who wanted to get Helen back, (not sure about aphrodite, as a godess she only really cared about herself and toying with human emotions) Hera supported the Trojans.

ps the war of Troy is the Prequel to the Oddysea (for those who want more literature of the like)

[kgbisouttogetme]

who said the thing about helen of sparta? because heres the deal. helen of sparta and helen of troy were (gasp) the same person.

[sofiabailote]

who said the thing about helen of sparta? because heres the deal. helen of sparta and helen of troy were (gasp) the same person.

that was the fucking point of the comment.

[WriterofAllWrongs]

One strip back Jeph made an Om Nom Nom joke, guys.  I don't think the obscurity or high-mindedness of the jokes are really all that important, so long as you get the damn joke.

[Surgoshan]

who said the thing about helen of sparta? because heres the deal. helen of sparta and helen of troy were (gasp) the same person.

Yeah the thing is people who know their shit call her Helen of Sparta and people who haver seen the Brad Pitt movie call her Helen of Troy.

Actually, I've never heard her called Helen of Sparta... and I took a class with from an hysterical Englishman at an Ivy League college who would explain Homer's puns to us... in the original ancient Greek.

When we read the Odyssey, he explained Helen and Menelaus's fight in these terms.

"So she tells a story relating how clever Odysseus truly was, and how the Achaeans were mighty, and how she longed to return to Sparta..

Then Menelaus tells a story how she came to the Horse with 'Daiphibus, that handsome man.  Wasn't he your second Trojan husband?' and tried to make the Achaeans cry out.

... That is to say, she said she never wanted to leave Sparta.  His response?  'Fucking liar'."

Thing is, she's Helen.  Which Helen?  The Helen who went to Troy.  Ergo, Helen of Troy.  She's been called such forever.  Witness this painting, hosted at wikipedia, from 1898 titled Helen of Troy.

[Mr. Skawronska]

"I am Jens of the JFK International".

Wouldn't want to confuse you with the homeless guy in the corner at the airport.

S

[carrotosaurus]

While adding 's usually indicates the possessive form of the word, you should avoid nonstandard contractions. The first example below is confusing because
most readers will anticipate that dog’s  is being used in the possessive sense and will be expecting you to say something about the dog’s injured nose, paw, or whatever.

Confusing: The dog’s injured.
Clear: The dog is injured.

Wheeee

[ladydraykona]

From Wikipedia:

The war originated from a quarrel between the goddesses Athena, Hera and Aphrodite, after Eris, the goddess of strife and discord, gave them a golden apple, sometimes known as the apple of Discord, marked "for the fairest". Zeus sent the goddesses to Paris, who judged that Aphrodite, as the "fairest", should receive the apple. In exchange, Aphrodite made Helen, the most beautiful of all women, fall in love with Paris, who took her to Troy. Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and the brother of Helen's husband Menelaus, led an expedition of Achaean troops to Troy and besieged the city for ten years. After the deaths of many heroes, including the Achaeans Achilles and Ajax, and the Trojans Hector and Paris, the city fell to the ruse of the Trojan Horse.

Helen of Troy:  "The Face that could launch a Thousand Ships."

There, now you're up to speed.

S

Well then wikipedia is wrong lol... if you read the original accounts by homeros you'll see that a sheepherder on the flanks of the Greek Mountainrange actually decided that Helen was the fairest, and gave her the golden apple. Hence Hera, who would be damned if she'd lose to a mortal made Helen madly run away to Troy. (There is no mention of an actual love between Helen and the sheppard, the love comes from the overly modernised movie, where love HAD to be the driving force... Athena, who in her wisdom was a fair loser decided to support the Greeks who wanted to get Helen back, (not sure about aphrodite, as a godess she only really cared about herself and toying with human emotions) Hera supported the Trojans.

ps the war of Troy is the Prequel to the Oddysea (for those who want more literature of the like)

The Iliad, you mean? 
For a good version of the story of Troy, check out Marion Zimmer Bradley's Firebrand. It explains that Paris WAS the shepherd. He was exiled at birth because his mother had a vision that he would be the downfall of Troy. He picked Aphrodite, who gave him Helen.

[Mr. Skawronska]

Damn, I was so hoping this would turn into a "Wikipedia is WRONG!" thread.

Nothing to see here...gotta move along.

S

[Surgoshan]

Well, if it's from the nineteenth century, it must be accurate.

My point is that she's always been called Helen of Troy.  Calling her Helen of Sparta, while perhaps more accurate, is kind of pedantic.

[sofiabailote]

Well, if it's from the nineteenth century, it must be accurate.

My point is that she's always been called Helen of Troy.  Calling her Helen of Sparta, while perhaps more accurate, is kind of pedantic.

Yeah, it sure is kind of pedantic... as much as the original post:  "Helen of Troy was an obvious reference.  Everyone and his kid sister knows about Helen.  And since the movie came out?  Please!

If she wanted to sound smart (or if Jeph wanted her to sound smart) he should have had her refer to some other fought over historical woman.

Guinevere comes to mind."

[Surgoshan]

No, that was more condescending than pedantic*. 

*  That statement, though, was pedantic.

[sofiabailote]

No, that was more condescending than pedantic*. 

*  That statement, though, was pedantic.

Now that was patronizing 

Anyway, if Penny referred Guinevere Faye wouldn't have the "Medea" punchline. And I think Penny made the reference regarding Sven's comment "... Wil doing something completely retarded to impress you", not about being fought over.

[Surgoshan]

No, that was more condescending than pedantic*. 

*  That statement, though, was pedantic.

Now that was patronizing 

I'm glad you were able to take it in good fun.  I always worry about things like that.

Anyway, if Penny referred Guinevere Faye wouldn't have the "Medea" punchline. And I think Penny made the reference regarding Sven's comment "... Wil doing something completely retarded to impress you", not about being fought over.

I think if Penny had gone the English route then Faye's comment would have made her even smarter what with being all cross-cultural and shit.  It would have still been applicable, but more obscure what with being out of left field.

[RovingSoul]

Right. So I haven't read this entire thing, but I registered just to respond to it.

1. Guinevere is pretty much just as well known as Helen. I personally know less about her, cause I'm into the Greek stuff. However, I've known about Authur and his Knights, and Lancelot and Guinevere and the menage a trois since I was about 2. I found out about Helen when I was in High School.

2. The couple of posts I read did not seem to know anything about the whole Helen situation. It very complicated, but I'll give the nutshell version. Also, there are going to be people who disagree with what I have learned about the events that transpired, as they are in fact dealing with Gods. So nobody actually knows what happened. Ok, there was a wedding, and all of the Gods were invited, except for Discord (or Strife, or something like that) because why would you want Discord at a wedding. So, she was pissed, and went and fetched a golden apple. Then she brought the golden apple, and threw it into the crowd, and said that the fairest shall have it. Three Goddess' tried to claim it, Athena, Hera, and Aphrodite. So, to decide who whould get the Apple, they brought in Paris, who was an exceptionally handsome sheep herder, and incidentally, a long lost son of Priam (I believe he was lost on purpose, cause there was a prophecy of him being the doom of Troy, or some such.) The three Goddess' all offered him things to entice him to choose them. Athena offered wisdom and prowess in battle, and Hera offered him a Kingdom. However, he was already a fairly adequate fighter, and a Prince of Troy, so compared with Aphrodite's offer, those were rather superfolous. Aphrodite offered him the most beautiful woman in the world (never mind that she was already married to Menelaus). And he took that offer. And Helen was A) Abducted, or B) Went willingly. And Menelaus was able to gather so many supporters to go after her, because Helen's father (with Odyesseus' help) had made all the suitors promise to defend the chosen husband. And, lol, after the huge war, Helen want back to Sparta, and by some accounts, had a relatively long life with Menelaus.

3. Whatever jokes should have been made, they are in fact just jokes, which are supposed to be spur of the moment, and it is up to Jeph as to what jokes are made, and IT'S A FREAKING COMIC PEOPLE!!!

[viatriphop]

Right. So I haven't read this entire thing, but I registered just to respond to it.

1. Guinevere is pretty much just as well known as Helen. I personally know less about her, cause I'm into the Greek stuff. However, I've known about Authur and his Knights, and Lancelot and Guinevere and the menage a trois since I was about 2. I found out about Helen when I was in High School.

2. The couple of posts I read did not seem to know anything about the whole Helen situation. It very complicated, but I'll give the nutshell version. Also, there are going to be people who disagree with what I have learned about the events that transpired, as they are in fact dealing with Gods. So nobody actually knows what happened. Ok, there was a wedding, and all of the Gods were invited, except for Discord (or Strife, or something like that) because why would you want Discord at a wedding. So, she was pissed, and went and fetched a golden apple. Then she brought the golden apple, and threw it into the crowd, and said that the fairest shall have it. Three Goddess' tried to claim it, Athena, Hera, and Aphrodite. So, to decide who whould get the Apple, they brought in Paris, who was an exceptionally handsome sheep herder, and incidentally, a long lost son of Priam (I believe he was lost on purpose, cause there was a prophecy of him being the doom of Troy, or some such.) The three Goddess' all offered him things to entice him to choose them. Athena offered wisdom and prowess in battle, and Hera offered him a Kingdom. However, he was already a fairly adequate fighter, and a Prince of Troy, so compared with Aphrodite's offer, those were rather superfolous. Aphrodite offered him the most beautiful woman in the world (never mind that she was already married to Menelaus). And he took that offer. And Helen was A) Abducted, or B) Went willingly. And Menelaus was able to gather so many supporters to go after her, because Helen's father (with Odyesseus' help) had made all the suitors promise to defend the chosen husband. And, lol, after the huge war, Helen want back to Sparta, and by some accounts, had a relatively long life with Menelaus.

3. Whatever jokes should have been made, they are in fact just jokes, which are supposed to be spur of the moment, and it is up to Jeph as to what jokes are made, and IT'S A FREAKING COMIC PEOPLE!!!

Amen sista!
People take this shit too seriously.

[KeepACoolin]

From Wikipedia:

The war originated from a quarrel between the goddesses Athena, Hera and Aphrodite, after Eris, the goddess of strife and discord, gave them a golden apple, sometimes known as the apple of Discord, marked "for the fairest". Zeus sent the goddesses to Paris, who judged that Aphrodite, as the "fairest", should receive the apple. In exchange, Aphrodite made Helen, the most beautiful of all women, fall in love with Paris, who took her to Troy. Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and the brother of Helen's husband Menelaus, led an expedition of Achaean troops to Troy and besieged the city for ten years. After the deaths of many heroes, including the Achaeans Achilles and Ajax, and the Trojans Hector and Paris, the city fell to the ruse of the Trojan Horse.

Helen of Troy:  "The Face that could launch a Thousand Ships."

There, now you're up to speed.

S

Well then wikipedia is wrong lol... if you read the original accounts by homeros you'll see that a sheepherder on the flanks of the Greek Mountainrange actually decided that Helen was the fairest, and gave her the golden apple. Hence Hera, who would be damned if she'd lose to a mortal made Helen madly run away to Troy. (There is no mention of an actual love between Helen and the sheppard, the love comes from the overly modernised movie, where love HAD to be the driving force... Athena, who in her wisdom was a fair loser decided to support the Greeks who wanted to get Helen back, (not sure about aphrodite, as a godess she only really cared about herself and toying with human emotions) Hera supported the Trojans.

ps the war of Troy is the Prequel to the Oddysea (for those who want more literature of the like)

That shepherd was Paris.  Due to a prophecy that stated that their second son would ruin them, Priam and his wife sent Paris to live with shepherds while he was a baby (a la Oedipus), and he later found out who he was and came back to live with them.  Wikipedia is NEVER wrong, b.

[Sporky]

This thread is an example of why Internet forums are stupid.