Fun Stuff > BAND
So....Music
BeoPuppy:
--- Quote from: MadassAlex on 28 Jul 2009, 00:38 ---
--- Quote from: David_Dovey on 26 Jul 2009, 22:52 ---Perhaps my use of the term "pissing contest" was inflammatory, but do you really think that there is no small amount of competition between musicians of a certain type to see who can play faster and wilder than their predecessors?
--- End quote ---
I think that there is absolutely no competition whatsoever. I can't imagine how there could be.
--- End quote ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Kat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmsteen
... just to name two.
Mind you, it doesn't make for great music.
MadassAlex:
Uh, what are you talking about? Malmsteen has written some great music. Check out his performances with the Japan Philharmonic on YouTube.
Not to mention that he extensively explored a style of phrasing that no-one else was at the time, with the exception of a very few, most notably Ritchie Blackmore. His contributions to heavy metal and shred guitar are incredible. His influence even extends into technical death metal.
I think it's absolutely fine if you don't like someone's music, but that level of technical skill, especially in an area of phrasing not often explored by guitarists at the time, can only be the result of passion for music.
BeoPuppy:
Fine, I'll specify. The need for speed as a THING all on its own leads to people forgetting to write songs. So, when guitarists just shred all the time I grow bored. And I think Malmsteen can be accused of doing just that on several occassions.
David_Dovey:
--- Quote from: MadassAlex on 28 Jul 2009, 00:38 ---The issue here is that you assume a technically conscious musician doesn't aim to express themselves. Political, social and philosophical commentary isn't exactly unique to punk rock.
--- End quote ---
My post was a gross oversimplification to be sure, but I stand by my assertion that the examples I gave are still the primary motivators for the genres in question.
--- Quote ---I think that there is absolutely no competition whatsoever. I can't imagine how there could be. There are reasons to want to be faster, but I don't think ego is one of them. To produce more intense music, or to be able to play with more general comfort would be the real reasons to increase speed.
--- End quote ---
The competition doesn't necessarily have to be overt or even entirely conscious. I'm not necessarily suggesting that musicians are sitting in rehearsal rooms listening to other bands' records and saying to each other "we need to be 'x' amount more technical".
--- Quote ---The voice is an instrument, and the melodies it expresses are a part of the compositional aspects. Expressing language doesn't separate it from other instruments. All the same rules and limitations apply.
--- End quote ---
Incorrect. Expressing language does separate vocals from the rest of the instruments, particularly when said language is responsible for forming/conveying the aesthetic of the band. Remember that in the vast majority of popular music forms- with the notable exceptions of metal and prog- the rest of the instruments more or less exist to provide support for the vocalist.
--- Quote ---I'd like to note here that I don't have significant emotional investment in this discussion. If I sound like I'm getting riled up, please understand that I'm not, and I want to continue this in the most sincere and comfortable way possible. I'm mostly playing the Devil's advocate here, as I understand the purpose of punk rock and its place, but I've never discussed it from the point of view of it being potentially regressive rather than progressive.
--- End quote ---
Hey, me too!
I'm not entirely sure how I ended up being the guy arguing this point seeing as there are at least a dozen people on this forum I could think of off the top of my head who could argue it far more credibly than I. I guess, like you, I enjoy playing Devil's Advocate. I'm finding this discussion particularly fun because about two years ago I would've been saying exactly what you are right now.
MadassAlex:
--- Quote from: David_Dovey on 28 Jul 2009, 01:17 ---Incorrect. Expressing language does separate vocals from the rest of the instruments, particularly when said language is responsible for forming/conveying the aesthetic of the band. Remember that in the vast majority of popular music forms- with the notable exceptions of metal and prog- the rest of the instruments more or less exist to provide support for the vocalist.
--- End quote ---
I think we should note that it is indeed in most modern popular music where this is primarily true. Classical music is a fantastic example of a genre that doesn't have a vocal emphasis (although it certainly includes those elements) and was wildly popular for its time. This suggests to me that the ability to apply language is not a necessity for musical expression, but a tool that happens to be more prominent today. Plenty of kinds of folk music don't actually feature vocals more prominently than vocal elements, either, so I'd hardly say that vocals are a breed apart from instruments by definition - just by current popular musical values.
Consider also the enjoyment one can receive from vocals in a different language. Latin, German and Italian are prominent in vocal-inclusive classical music, and there are certainly a multitude of people who enjoy such music without understanding a word of the languages.
The point stands, however, that vocals are not compositionally different from other instruments, as the same rules of harmony and rhythm apply.
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