Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCT: October 19-23, 2009
Lyrical:
I think they're celebrating in town with the whole gang, but it seems a little strange that they'd invite a bunch of people that they don't know to their wedding, much less have them *in* the wedding party. Since they're visiting from out of town, I guess they might decide to welcome anyone who shows up and is respectful.
killbot, disagreeing with you, or refusing to convert, doesn't count as persecution. In China, where Christians and people from other religions can be *jailed* for their faith, they're experiencing persecution.
--- Quote from: matachin on 22 Oct 2009, 08:18 ---I personally find it disturbing that far too many of the "conservative" Christian side are only well-read when it comes to Bible commentary. These rather vocal folk then proceed to bash science (threatens their faith), any minority they wish (same), education in general (who needs physics & evolution?), & the arts (anything that isn't religious is an attack on religion & pro-{gay,atheist,satanist}).
So...Henry & Maurice do tie the knot. Pintsize gets left at home because everyone knows he'll cause trouble. A Fred Phelps-like leader & his flock do the "God hates fags" thing outside. Pintsize trolls them with his usual style, possibly involving horsecock or other male genitalia.
--- End quote ---
Wait, Pintsize is trolling the Phelps-people or Marten, Maurice, and Henry?
Actually, quite a few of the "conservative" Christians you mention don't bother to read the Bible either, they just regurgitate the passages their Pastor feeds them. In 3 different places, the Disciples ask Jesus how to go about evangelising, and He tells them that if someone isn't interested, to go away, leave them alone, and find someone who *wants* to talk with them about it! He also specifically says that missionaries aren't supposed to take money for lodging and food with them. If the people in one place don't want them there so much that they are willing to put them up in their own homes and make sure they get enough to eat, they're obviously not welcome and need to move on. As to the whole prayer in the schools thing, as long as there are midterms and finals, there *will* be prayer in the schools! Jesus says that anyone who makes a loud production of it needs to go "back in the closet" and mend their relationship with God. (I'm serious - direct quote there!)
My Dad is Baptist, and a convert from Orthodox Judaism. He wishes that the governmentally-performed marriages would get a different name, such as Civil Unions, regardless of the gender of the people involved, but that they should have the same rights including health care and taxes. He agrees that current Civil Partnerships don't go far enough. My Mom isn't as supportive of legalising same-sex marriage (by any name) but she "doesn't want anyone to be discriminated against, and nobody should be mean to them for any reason." I've had the same attitude for a long time, but with reading some more about "separate but equal", I'm concerned that even if it starts out the same (very optimistic), keeping a different label might make it easier for the government to change policies/remove rights.
I have several gay friends, and a lot of them are still close to their families, including ones who are Catholic or Protestant. I've met some of their parents (not as a potential girlfriend or anything like that, just hanging out), and they're very warm, caring, accepting people.
Back when I was doing Renaissance Faire, one of the (rather drunk at the time) ladies in the guild said at a party, "I'm so great in bed, I got a gay man to go straight." Another looked at her and said, "That's nice dear. *I* drove a straight man gay!" (her fiance dumped her a few days before the wedding and came out). In all seriousness, most such "flips" result from pressure within the gay community for high-Kinsey-score bisexual men to choose the "gay" label instead, almost as a political statement. I've heard them yell at guys for "sitting on the fence," "being greedy/slutty/promiscuous," and "he'll just dump me for a girl" (and very similar things from lesbians toward bisexual women). There are also some people who are in denial, or who try to fit in with social pressure to get married and have kids, especially if they are older.
maddness:
--- Quote from: Mr_Rose on 23 Oct 2009, 23:49 ---
--- Quote from: maddness on 23 Oct 2009, 21:24 ---I believe that every religion has it's own right to decide whether they can perform a marriage between same-sex couples. I may think it sucks if they don't, but as a religion, the state has no say in whether they do or not.
--- End quote ---
Right. But who has been telling any particular religious organisation who or what they can marry? It has been pretty much exactly the other way around ever since the topic first came up.
No state institution I have ever heard of has ever tried to tell a church or other religious outpost that they must perform a ceremony for such-and-such classification of couple - mostly it's the churches that have been trying to tell the states that they aren't allowed to issue licences to gay couples because it "violates the sanctity of marriage" or some such.
--- End quote ---
Was I arguing that point?
I was just saying you can be fully, legally married without any church involvement whatsoever.
AvalonXQ:
I'm pretty happy with Jeph's treatment of this topic in the comic so far. Personally I'm opposed to gay marriage, but I don't think it's reasonable that these characters would be; they're acting realistically based on the beliefs that Jeph has reasonably portrayed them as having.
What I'm concerned about is Jeph using this as an opportunity to set up a strawman -- an obvious stereotype to oppose Henry and Maurice.
Setting up unrealistic characters with beliefs that you strongly disagree with, just for the purpose of knocking them down, really tends to turn me off whether I agree with your position or not.
Mr_Rose:
--- Quote from: maddness on 24 Oct 2009, 08:56 ---
--- Quote from: Mr_Rose on 23 Oct 2009, 23:49 ---
--- Quote from: maddness on 23 Oct 2009, 21:24 ---I believe that every religion has it's own right to decide whether they can perform a marriage between same-sex couples. I may think it sucks if they don't, but as a religion, the state has no say in whether they do or not.
--- End quote ---
Right. But who has been telling any particular religious organisation who or what they can marry? It has been pretty much exactly the other way around ever since the topic first came up.
No state institution I have ever heard of has ever tried to tell a church or other religious outpost that they must perform a ceremony for such-and-such classification of couple - mostly it's the churches that have been trying to tell the states that they aren't allowed to issue licences to gay couples because it "violates the sanctity of marriage" or some such.
--- End quote ---
Was I arguing that point?
I was just saying you can be fully, legally married without any church involvement whatsoever.
--- End quote ---
Dunno, sounded like you might have been? Every time I've hear the argument that "religions should be free to choose who to marry" it has always been followed by "therefore homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry, because that's our thing" or similar. I guess I just responded by reflex.
Rikushix:
--- Quote from: Lyrical on 24 Oct 2009, 08:20 ---Actually, quite a few of the "conservative" Christians you mention don't bother to read the Bible either, they just regurgitate the passages their Pastor feeds them. In 3 different places, the Disciples ask Jesus how to go about evangelising, and He tells them that if someone isn't interested, to go away, leave them alone, and find someone who *wants* to talk with them about it! He also specifically says that missionaries aren't supposed to take money for lodging and food with them. If the people in one place don't want them there so much that they are willing to put them up in their own homes and make sure they get enough to eat, they're obviously not welcome and need to move on. As to the whole prayer in the schools thing, as long as there are midterms and finals, there *will* be prayer in the schools! Jesus says that anyone who makes a loud production of it needs to go "back in the closet" and mend their relationship with God. (I'm serious - direct quote there!)
--- End quote ---
Unfortunately the sad fact is that the Bible consists of two books - the Old and the New Testaments. Citing the New Testament is nice and all, but it's the Old Testament that is a veritable tome of hatred, bigotry and rampant tyranny.
It's pretty interesting actually, the job I worked on this summer had a girl working there, 16 years old (and her 14 year old sister). Half-Taiwanese, (in my opinion) extremely bright and a very good "thinker". But the discussions we had turned from interesting to "laughably ridiculous" when they broached the topic of her religion.
Her family is Reformed Calvinist. Her dad is a minister; she and her sister were born while their parents were doing a missionary in Fiji for three years.
So obviously, being a Reformed Calvinist, they aren't puritan in terms of customs, but as far as religious beliefs go, they believe EVERYTHING in the Bible. One day we were talking about religion (cordially), and this is the conversation we had:
Her: "One of my biggest pet peeves is when people pick and choose what they want from the Bible."
Me: "In what way? You mean historical anecdotes, like 'did God really rain fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gommorah?', or moral teachings, like 'you should stone your kids if they speak back to you'. Or both?"
Her: "Anything. Everything."
Me: "So you agree that an unmarried woman who is raped should marry her rapist, as long as the rapist pays her father fifty shekels?"
Her: "Uh..."
Me: "How about you and I take a trip to Utah and take the sword to everyone living in Salt Lake City because they're all heathen Mormons?"
Her: <_<
Me: "Megan."
Her: "Yeah?"
Me: "Do you sacrifice two doves at your father's church every month you have your period?"
Her: "...no. I don't do that."
Me: "So why don't you do that? The Bible says that you should, and the Bible is God's word. I thought you were supposed to do what God told you to."
Her: (much thinking for a good few minutes before she says something along the lines of "Social values naturally change over time", which is officially the lamest response ever)
However, the saddest thing happened when I asked her about me.
We had had several (very intelligent and altogether fair) discussions about god and our personal beliefs, so she knew I wasn't an outright athiest. But this same day, I asked her, "Megan, if I believed God didn't exist, would I go to Hell?" I'll never forget the facial expression she made as she tried to deal with the mental dilemma. It was just disheartening in a disturbing sort of way, as she tried to weigh her own moral compassion against the rigid values that had been indoctrinated into her from birth, courtesy of her caregivers. Finally she told me that while, "technically", the Bible says, yes, I would go to hell, she really doesn't like the "concept of Hell" - basically saying that she doesn't think a loving God would send people like me to eternal damnation.
After that we were silent.
It was very sad.
Just wanted to share that.
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