Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT

What is Marigold's fundamental character?

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nichidani:
Good point. And being a girl with glasses and pulled back hair and social anxiety, that's always bothered me. While a lot of us withdrawn nerd girls would like to be a little more outgoing and pretty, we don't all want to become a cookie cutter image of conventional 'beauty'. At least, not most of the time.

IanClark:

--- Quote ---The only reason it was even brought up was because, despite not being a big deal its pretty much the only example of Marigold being particularly selfless.
--- End quote ---

It's also pretty much the only example of Marigold not being in unknown territory. Basically, the only reason I brought it up in the first place was purely for psychoanalysis. When trying to analyze a person's fundamental nature, you should never base it on how they act outside of their element, and so far almost all of Marigold's appearances have been just that: Out of her element. So what I'm saying is that, on the rare time we've seen her inside her own element, she performs altruistic acts without really thinking.


--- Quote ---Being unaware of your actions does not excuse them; the incident with Momo and the expectations with Angus are big examples of "Marigold first".
--- End quote ---

I think being unaware of your actions is the only thing that does excuse them, although that goes both ways. Marigold helped Hannelore overcome a major roadblock with her OCD, but it doesn't count because she had no idea she was doing it. In that exact same vein, her being selfish can be at least partially overlooked since she's shown to also have no idea she's doing it.


--- Quote ---Not tipping a delivery guy is pretty rude in the States, slamming a door in his face was vile,
--- End quote ---

Not sure why you specified the States, it's just as rude in Canada...

Anyway, I think Dale's reaction to it, and to Marigold period, is possibly the most reasonable out of any of the cast and most of the people here. At first he was kind of shocked, but he never seemed to get to offended because he realized there was just something profoundly bizarre about it. So instead his response seems to be to laugh it off and challenge her semi-seriously. You've described her behaviour toward Dale as vile, disgusting and rude, but you have yet to describe it in the way that should jump out to everyone as soon as they read it: Really fuckin' weird. Jeph has said that QC exists in a universe far sillier than the real one. This is why Faye was able to throw Angus across a bar with no serious injury, Faye was able to hit a vein opening a tin of tomatoes without losing consciousness, hospitals keep punching interns on staff, store windows advertise "touristy bullshit" and Steve works for the US Government Department of Kicking Your Ass. I'd venture a guess and say the more outrageous something is, the less offensive it is to the people in the QC Universe. In all likelihood, Dale woke up that morning, walked into work some time later, said hello to his coworker the superhero, then delivered pizza to all myriad of people, some of whom were probably naked, some of whom might not have actually stopped fucking while he was at the door, some of whom he himself might've fucked, some of whom probably had some kind of exotic pet they kept trying to show him and convince him to stick his head in the mouth of. Point is, once the initial shock wore off, getting no tip and a door slammed in his face over WoW shit was probably the funniest thing that happened to him all day, or possibly second to the couple who also slammed the door in his face for not yelling "Albatross" when he arrived at the door. The point is, it's a weird universe and getting a door slammed in your face probably isn't as big a deal there as it is here.


--- Quote ---guilt-trip makeouts* was worse.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, it was pretty shitty of her, but in a way it kind of lets on to how sad her life's been and why she deserves sympathy. Let's say for a second that you had no conscience whatsoever and didn't give a fuck about the emotional well-being of anyone around you, would you ever try to guilt-trip someone into making out with you? Of course not, it'd feel hollow and the shame would kill you. The fact that she doesn't seem to care proves she really does think that poorly of herself, and that it's not just an act that she milks.


--- Quote ---Basically she's an empty character that doesn't actually do much more than pity-party.
--- End quote ---

Once again, out of her element. Being thrust into social situations has exposed all of her shortcomings, and she's failing to redeem herself in her own mind. Playing WoW all day, she felt unfulfilled, but at least she felt worthy. Now not so much, and the learning curve is steep when the examiner is yourself. If you could come out of that without self-pitying, you're a stronger person than a lot of people.


--- Quote ---What reason do we have to actually like Marigold?  There only seem to be people defending her because they feel sorry for her or her latest awkward moment relates to some awkward moment in their own past, but are either of those actually legitimately liking her as a character?
--- End quote ---

Yes to both actually. You can't feel sorry for someone if you don't like them. The reason we have to like her is that, as I've demonstrated, there's a case to be made that there's a genuinely nice person somewhere in there, even if right now she's a nice person doing not nice things. Which is possible when there are other factors, like a lack of self-awareness.


--- Quote ---And no, despite most of my friends being major geeks/nerds/whathaveyou (incl. myself), despite a number of them being pretty big gamers (incl. myself), not one of them has reached the level of social ineptitude somehow attained by Marigold
--- End quote ---

But a few days ago, you said she wasn't actually that socially inept.


--- Quote ---I wouldn't hate them because I wouldn't associate with them, but Marigold takes up a not-insignificant amount of time in a strip where I enjoy pretty much every other character.
--- End quote ---

Shall we delve into the transgressions of the other characters? This post is already long enough as it is, so no maybe another time.


--- Quote ---Nice ad hominem though.
--- End quote ---

I apologize for the poor wording of my comment. What I meant to say was that if your standards were as high as you say, you'd be a prick, but they're not, so you're not a prick. This was proven correct by your statement about enjoying the other characters.

Is it cold in here?:

--- Quote from: IanClark on 10 Jun 2010, 11:03 ---... on the rare time we've seen her inside her own element, she performs altruistic acts without really thinking.

--- End quote ---

For example, helping out guildmates even when said guildmates are not pulling their own weight.

IanClark:
I want to address the issue of whether Marigold is a sociopath or is genuinely as self-loathing as she says, but since it's so much of a purely speculative issue, it's going to end up as more of a psychological case study than anything else. Should I put it here or create a whole new topic?

TAG:
Hey Ian

I'll try to make this brief, so excuse the formatting.  Wiped out from work project.  Numbers for points.

1)  If you define the world outside her apartment as outside her element that doesn't leave us with a whole lot.  I would argue the initial Dale exchange should be in her element as its about both WoW and junk food delivery.  Dale was hurt enough to devote easily 300 hours to get a petty meaningless revenge.  Also in her room alone with Momo.

She's also not terribly good at handling her raid guild / online life.  And as a partial reply to Is it Cold, she's not doing it for them, she's doing it for her.  Every guild has it's deadweight, its a fact of virtual life ;P

To her credit, she performed reasonably off camera at the comic con.  Although she does freak out and then pout at Martin's expense.

But, as I said a while ago, friendships are give and take.  Community is give and take.  How one handles oneself outside of an optimal environment is just as, if not more, important than how one handles oneself at one's peak.

2)  I think this is a philosophic disagreement outside the purview of the discussion so I hesitate to get into it.  Refusing to accept, analyze, or think about the consequences of your actions is not a positive trait.  The only excuse, to me, would be an actual handicap such as Asperger's or other forms of autism.

I don't think the Hanners example is valid though.  Marigold's actions put Hanners in an uncomfortable position, perhaps because Marigold wasn't thinking about Hanners again (granted in this case it is perhaps excusable).  Hanners then overcame her own impulses.  It wasn't the intended or unintended act by Marigold -- which should have resulted in a flipped out Hanners -- but a separate and distinct act of suppression by Hanners, which is even visible.

3) I brought up the States because some other countries -- notably Aussieland -- don't share our absurd tipping system and QC seems to have a broad international readership.  So I don't know how one from there would perceive the act of tip shirking.

And as I said ealier, Dale seems to have committed himself to hundreds of hours worth of revenge.  But Dale's response is irrelevant.  It was rude, and it was vile, and whether Dale is a good enough guy to let it go or not doesn't matter.

4)  If I had no conscience?  Sure, if it got me what I wanted.  Isn't that the definition of no conscience?  If you grant her that it was reflexive, unconscious guilt-tripping, that makes it worse; she can then enjoy what she's after without recognizing that she only has it because she manipulated someone else.  It also means her natural, unconscious decisions are pretty evil.

5) Again, semi-philosophical disagreement, see end of point 1.

6) I disagree, you can feel sorry for people you don't even know, much less like.  That's the whole premise behind almost every single charity promotion anywhere.  Hell I feel sorry for Marigold; doesn't mean I think she's a good person (obviously).  Is everyone in Hati a saint, or everyone in New Orleans?  No.  But I still donated.  Same with blood donations, which I feel should be freely available to anyone in need.

7) I... never said she wasn't?  Not that I can recall anyway.  I write these posts in different states of exhaustion as I travel generally so I may be forgetting.  She's inept.  That could excuse saying things in the wrong way, but it doesn't excuse the intent or general meaning behind those things.  It just makes it easier to see her innate selfishness / manipulations.

8 hates emoticons) Other characters aren't angels either, I freely admit that.  But they all do have reasons to like them that outweigh their problems.  Even if you don't like them (Sven or Faye, for instance), they are at least generally interesting.  Being interesting characters may break the 4th wall as an analysis of their character but in the context of the reader, where one focus means the exclusion of another, its at least a better read.  Hell, by 300 strips in the "original 4" all had at least some reason to genuinely like them, even with faults.

9) Thanks ^^  I love to debate but I dislike making things, especially internet things, personal.

/end_list

Anyway I still have yet to really hear a reason why anyone should really like Marigold, as a person or a character.  No one was able to come up for a good reason why Angus said she was so awesome other than flattery, and the rest of the QC cast only seems to be able to think of and compliment her chest (to her face or otherwise).

Sure, there may be some potential great person buried deep inside, but everyone has the potential to change.  Humans are wonderfully plastic that way, and the world is a strange place full of life altering events, and the QC world is even stranger.  And hell, as I said before, I'm certain Jeph will "redeem" Marigold at some point.  Maybe knowing Dora wants to moterboat her will get her into therepy and get her to make some real effort for a metoric rise to a crowning moment of awesome.  But currently, she's a pretty bad-to-meh person and a boring character.  Her involvement in the QC group is more a testament to the character of the other characters, rather than her own.

Fake Edit Cause It Updated While I was Typing: At your latest Ian, I don't think she is a sociopath*, in that I don't think there is anything preventing her from at least normal levels of empathy.  She could be some level of autistic, but until that is confirmed I think she is just a generally unimpressive person who refused to put in the effort to be a good one.

* Yes I know I called her that in some post, but it was also in the context of a joking response with an accompanying emoticon and all :P

Edit 2: Because it's not worth a full new post.
@Is it cold below, I think it's implied that Angus was either joking/lying or was living elsewhere at the time.  Housemates.  Not roommate or suitemate, but implying living in a (presumably rented) house with multiple other people.

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