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The Humping Turtle

1 (2.6%)

Tai spills the Beans

0 (0%)

Marten's Sense of Humor Getting the Best of Him

4 (10.3%)

The Ice Pack

0 (0%)

Dora consoling Marigold (D'awwww)

5 (12.8%)

Internet Drama and Goatse

1 (2.6%)

Marigold's Amazing Rack

12 (30.8%)

Faye and Angus in "Time Out"

7 (17.9%)

I... I am OK!

9 (23.1%)

Total Members Voted: 34

[Tuitsuro]

Because that's about where she is in terms of life experience.

You mean social experience?  Because I don't think she's even out of her single-digit years in that respect.  Still, just because she's emotionally and socially stunted doesn't mean we should simply treat her as a child.  She is an adult, and the other characters need to start treating her like one instead of playing to this facade she keeps putting up. 

[Schmorgluck]

Will you stop contradicting yourself, please, Tuitsuro? It makes it difficult to debate rationally.

Still, just because she's emotionally and socially stunted doesn't mean we should simply treat her as a child.  She is an adult, and the other characters need to start treating her like one instead of playing to this facade she keeps putting up.

You're first admitting she may indeed be stunted, then you assume it's a facade. WTF?

[Tuitsuro]

Will you stop contradicting yourself, please, Tuitsuro? It makes it difficult to debate rationally.

Stop rationing the debate, there's plenty enough for everyone.  

You're first admitting she may indeed be stunted, then you assume it's a facade. WTF?

I'm not saying the emotional stunting is the facade, the facade is that she's so damn fragile that she can't handle life.  That when she's confronted with a dilemma, she just runs off instead of dealing with it because it's too hard to face it.  That she can just sit and mope for days, agonizing over the whole thing, meanwhile doing nothing about it.  About the fact that she uses the excuse of being bullied in school to sit in front of her computer all day, live off her father's money, living in squalor and filth locked up in her own section of the apartment up until she happened upon Hannelore and the QC gang.  I mean why is any of that crap acceptable to anyone?  It certainly wasn't to Hannelore.  She took the initiative and gave her a metaphorical slap in the face over it, and hell, now they're the best of friends. 

[Sorflakne]

Goatse...goddammit I thought I'd finally purged that image from my mind.

[Moxie]

Well, looks like Dora cheered her up in the best way Dora knows how 

[zagraf]

Oh, wow... The expressions on Marigold in the third-last and penultimate panels are wonderful. Seriously Jeph (if you're reading this), some of your best artwork ever.

[Tuitsuro]

Honestly, that look kills me.  She's gloriously happy.  Admittedly, a better result than my 'slap in the face' suggestion would have obtained. 

[lunakitten]

Hee.
Oh my.
The next comment that usually comes after that is "can I touch them?" (yes, I know this from experience- even straight women/gay men go there  ) which would be what someone should walk out on...

Oh great- I've become one of them now. I swear I don't ship anyone!

[quats]

Marigold defines the word 'pitiful'.  See also 'pathetic'.  

Not to be completely mean, but she's sitting there at the front of the apartment complex having her own personal pity party.  Almost makes me want to slap her.  

No she doesn't. She's just having a rough time and it probably all came as a shock.

If she's still moping in a day or two, then she's being pathetic.

If you want to slap someone, slap one of the people that tried to hide this from her.

I strongly suspect that only very little of her mood is due to being the last to know and blaming the rest. A big chunk of it is likely having viewed Faye as a friend to some degree -- one of the few times she's let someone in, emotionally, and only very recently, to boot -- and now feels betrayed, whether or not it is warranted. She confessed her interest in Angus to The Girl Who Was Already Chasing Him! Not to mention, The Girl Who Already Pretty Much Got Him! (She doesn't know much of their history, after all, so this is likely her perception.) So likely a heaping helping of embarassment in there, to boot, especially if she's been thinking about her recent attempts to convince Angus to reconsider.

An immediate reaction like this is very normal. That she didn't completely run off, or start screaming or hunting down Angus or Faye is a good sign, really. She withdrew a short distance to cope. I agree, if she sulks/cuts herself off  a good long time then that's the point to get irritated with her. In the short term, her behavior is very normal.

People who shrug off a deep hurt and keep partying like nothing happened are the ones to watch very, very carefully.

[Steve the Pocket]

I don't know if Jeph reads this at all, but Marigold's lip in panel three and maybe also four is a deep maroon for some reason.

(Actually I know the reason but if you haven't been watching the Ustreams it won't make sense.)

[JackFaerie]

Awww, today's comic is cute. Dora is surprisingly good at this!

Running away instead of being up front about how she felt about it and having an actual discussion with the people she's offended by is what makes her pathetic.

I'm confused by your interpretation of events.

1. I don't see why "running away" is bad here: it's allowable to take some time out to process new information before acting, and in fact smart, and that's what I see Marigold doing. She got some new information that threw her for a loop, it hurt her and sent her emotions reeling, so she went outside to sit down where she wasn't under the eyes of everybody and let herself deal with the pain and think a little and sort herself out.  I didn't realize that "maturity" required one to process all one's emotions in public all the time.

2. Why would she need to be upfront about how she feels with anyone? If anything, that seems to be a bad idea. She feels hurt and betrayed. She also recognizes that nobody meant to either hurt or betray her. Her feelings are not invalid, but they are also not anyone's business--if anything, telling Faye or Angus how she feels would be inflicting unnecessary discomfort on them.  This is the kind of situation where you take stock of your emotions and sort them out on your own, or with a friend.  Some things are just your own problem, and so long as you realize that, it's best to keep it to yourself while you work it out.  Example: a mother finds out that her son is gay. She thinks she's ok with it until he brings his boyfriend home, and she feels disgusted when she sees them kissing goodbye outside. This is not a case for her to tell either her son or his boyfriend about her feelings--this is precisely a case where she needs to take a personal breather, or call a friend, and try to figure out how she can be supportive of her son while acknowledging (to herself, not to him) her discomfort. I see Marigold's discomfort with the Faye/Angus situation as similar in terms of how much of Marigold's feelings need to be shared.

3. I don't think she's offended by anyone, just hurt.  And no one really did anything offensive, except for Faye thinking this party was a good idea, and that's more "stupid" than "intentionally hurtful" anyway. And since no one wanted to hurt her or did anything offensive, I don't see why she's supposed to offer her emotions up on a platter rather than be allowed her privacy.

[Near Lurker]

Okay, really, what is it people see in jiggly/squished boobs?  Really?  They just look like globs of fat in those cases.

[JackFaerie]

But that's... what boobs are? Globs of glands surrounded by fat?

[weirdbeard]

Marigold's outstanding rack notwithstanding, what's up with the Dora art tonight?
I'm usually a 'jeph can do no wrong' kind of guy, but she's lookin' a little bit rondo today...

[JackFaerie]

Well, Jeph's said he finds drawing Dora difficult. I would say that he's drawing her eyes too small, and her jaw/cheeks too round. A rounder face looks good on Faye and Marigold, who have different proportions and longer hair to frame their faces, but on Dora it just looks out of balance and like her lower face is swollen. And a round jaw in combination with the small eyes and short hair makes her look unnecessarily butch.

See?



Although also, man, that haircut is just not the most flattering.

[snubnose]

Okay, really, what is it people see in jiggly/squished boobs?  Really?  They just look like globs of fat in those cases.

Err ... Boobs ARE globs of fat. Mostly, anyway.

[Kugai]

Well, Dora was the right person in the right place at the right time.

(No, I am not a Vorlon Inquisitor)

I like the fact that Dora turned out to be the person to cheer her up, now all we need is Tai to make the obligatory drunken pass at Marigold to round out the week.   

[Sorflakne]

Err ... Boobs ARE globs of fat. Mostly, anyway.

Pretty much.  But for some women, they're mostly silicone.

Also, most random QC comic I've seen in awhile IMO.

[raoullefere]

Although also, man, that haircut is just not the most flattering.

As I said a week or so ago.

Re: Marigold—if she can laugh at that, I think she's going to be okay.

And Dora's great.

[CEOIII]

Seriously. How do you not KNOW you have a nice rack? She's pretty much an invalid, spending all her time on the 'net, even if she's not outright pornsurfing, she has to run into some pictures of what people consider "attractive" women, you're telling me Mari never got a look at one of these women, felt kinda inadequate at first, then caught her silouette on the wall, or a side glance of herself in the mirror, and said "Hey..........fuck, I'm HUGE. Where'd those come from?"

Two ways Friday can go:

1) Mari comes back to the party, everyone's all "sorry we kept it from you", she's all "eh, I'm OK", and the party continues.

2) Mari says,"I'll be up in a minute", she takes off her bra, then goes back to the party, everyone's distracted by MariBoobs, and she's all evil-supervillian-with-a-new-doomsday-device happy.

[JackFaerie]

Seriously. How do you not KNOW you have a nice rack? She's pretty much an invalid, spending all her time on the 'net, even if she's not outright pornsurfing, she has to run into some pictures of what people consider "attractive" women, you're telling me Mari never got a look at one of these women, felt kinda inadequate at first, then caught her silouette on the wall, or a side glance of herself in the mirror, and said "Hey..........fuck, I'm HUGE. Where'd those come from?"

Lol. You're a guy, right? That's REALLY not how women with insecurity issues see themselves.

1st: "Hot women" online look nothing like Marigold, and she would not be easily able to separate out the individual bodyparts from the whole.
2nd: internet/pornstar big boobs look nothing like real big boobs. When Marigold looks at her boobs, she's probably very aware that they aren't preternaturally perky, that they're not symmetrical, that they have stretchmarks, etc etc etc.
3rd: Looking at herself in the mirror, Marigold does think "fuck, I'm HUGE" but not in the way you meant it. She possibly sees her breasts as just part of her overall fatness.  (Mari's not actually fat, but we've been told she thinks of herself that way.)
and that's just some of it.
  

[Moxie]

Well, Jeph's said he finds drawing Dora difficult. I would say that he's drawing her eyes too small, and her jaw/cheeks too round. A rounder face looks good on Faye and Marigold, who have different proportions and longer hair to frame their faces, but on Dora it just looks out of balance and like her lower face is swollen. And a round jaw in combination with the small eyes and short hair makes her look unnecessarily butch.

See?



Although also, man, that haircut is just not the most flattering.

Dang, wow, you are right about the jaw/cheek area being too round. Slimming it down fits her face, and matches her body much, much more. World of difference, and now that I know what it is about her face that bothers me, I'll see it all the time. Woo...

[Akima]

Kudos to Jeph for making a big-boob joke that's actually rather touching, and working in Dora's "up front" pun too. As someone said above, the Marigold-drawing is excellent.

Lol. You're a guy, right? That's REALLY not how women with insecurity issues see themselves.

I'm astounded to find myself agreeing with Jack  , but yeah. And actually we all have insecurity issues.

[Neskah]

Yeah, About the boobs, I'm well endowed... and I don't see it as an asset, when you get that big i tend to think of it as cartoonishly disproportionate. I mean yeah, Boobs are sexy... when they're plump and pert. But, there's a thing as too much cleavage and skin, even when you're not trying. It's a drawback. I can see how Marmar would just write it into her general sense of Fatness. Thankfully there are ppl like Dora and Tai around, who can see that in the right clothes mutton can outshine lamb and applaud it. BTW I love Mar.... the nerdy social ineptness and obsession for games, the frumpy curves, even the pigtails, she reminds me of someone =D

[stevelore]

Ok, so, maybe its just me, and if that's the case, I'll shut up, but:

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, JEPH STOP OBSESSING ABOUT BREASTS.

I'm not a prude or a puritan, but I think the strip has crossed the line from depicting liberated people who are (more or less) comfortable talking about their bodies into the territory of objectifying women.

Occasional snarky exchanges between faye and dora is one thing, but look at this:
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1672
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1675
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1678
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1684

It's like 80% of the time marigold is in the comic, someone (jeph) is making sure we all know that part of her value as a person is based on her breasts.

Here's an idea, Jeph: rent some porn, get the breast-obsession out of your system, and go back to telling an actual story, instead of reinforcing the misogynistic values of the patriarchy (also, ditch the heteronormativity a smidge. and nobody bring up Tai, because that's pure tokenism).

[Dliessmgg]

Saying that big boobs are big is misogynistic? 

Also, do you remember the strip where Faye stared at Sven's ass? That's obviously misandry!

[pwhodges]

"Hey Jeph, angle the strip more towards my prejudices rather than your own!"

the territory of objectifying women.

Maybe it objectifies men, too (those photos of Steve, for instance).

also, ditch the heteronormativity a smidge. and nobody bring up Tai, because that's pure tokenism.

Tokenism?  How?  Also, consider Marten's dad, Faye's sister, and Dora, for that matter.

[snubnose]

OMG QC characters fantasize about breasts ?

That never ever happends in reallife !!!

[stevelore]

Saying it over and over and over again, to a point that drowns out the character's other features, and actual, you know, personality, is a way of reinforcing the way in which women are judged to an absurd degree on their looks.

As for Faye staring at Sven's ass, 1) no I don't remember that strip (maybe because it wasn't 5 of the last 10 strips where it happened), and 2) which actions count as sexist/inappropriate depend on the power structures in place.  Women ogling men is not at all like men ogling women, because, in general, men do not inhabit a world in which they are viewed as objects rather than persons, and are rarely told that their worth is based directly on their appearance.  And I don't mean "told" in the sense that people sit women down and say "now, listen, you are only as valuable as you are pretty". I mean the subtle ways in which society and culture and media (including, yes, allegedly "indie" comics that don't _try_ to be part of that system) present a particular picture of what the appropriate gender roles are.

Let me put it this way: women are expected to wear makeup, men are not.  But it's not like men have magically smoother skin or more blushed cheeks. It's just that society doesn't put pressure on men to prioritize "looking pretty", because, in society, men are not devalued into mere objects of sexual conquest/interest.*

There is something empowering (in terms of challenging patriarchal ideals) about having female characters that speak frankly about sex, and do not consider their own bodies to be off-limits for discussion.  But, in the comic, Marten, Faye, Dora, Tai, tall-dorky-guy and Penelope are all participating in the process of objectifying women through their constant discussion of Marigold's chest, and, as an author, Jeph is not employing this as a means of drawing attention to, or otherwise combatting harmful tendencies in culture (nor even as a way of commenting on them), but is also promoting the harmful social norms.

*I'm definitely not saying that social and gender norms benefit men in all ways.  There are a lot of significant constraints on whether men can be open emotionally, and there is a lot of pressure to consider men more valuable if they are more aggressive and sexually virile/active.  However, a) this also compounds the problems facing women, b) it is pretty clear which gender faces greater disadvantage from current gender norms, and c) the system is enforced and perpetuated, primarily, by men, who hold most or all of the major positions of power in government, industry, and media.

[JackFaerie]

Kudos to Jeph for making a big-boob joke that's actually rather touching, and working in Dora's "up front" pun too. As someone said above, the Marigold-drawing is excellent.

Lol. You're a guy, right? That's REALLY not how women with insecurity issues see themselves.

I'm astounded to find myself agreeing with Jack  , but yeah. And actually we all have insecurity issues.

Hey, I'm not that evil.   Plus I only remember that one time we've disagreed!  Snubnose is my nemesis on these boards.

As for the poster above--wow.  And I thought I was the angry feminist on these here boards. :-p I gotta say, in comparison to most webcomic cartoonists (male and female)? Jeph's focus on breasts is minimal.


Girls with Slingshots (c)


Wapsi Square (c)

I dunno, I do not really think QC focuses on boobs all that much. It focuses on Dora's love for boobs... but uh... I'm a bi girl and that's pretty much how I feel about boobs too. And the way she interacts with Faye and Marigold is pretty much the way I interact with my well-endowed friends (and in both cases, part of the "omg boobs!" thing is because we're less-pneumatic and have felt insecure about it in the past).  And I am not sure Tai can count as tokenism here considering she's well integrated into the cast and has had several storylines of her own. She's not one of the major characters, but her romantic and sex life has been well explored (and shown!), more than just politely alluded to, as you get in tokenism.

[Mad Cat]

Note the caveat, "in that dress". How often does Marigold get dressed up? Answer: Not too damn often. Note how she's the only one who dressed any differently than they normally do just to go over to a friend's place to eat gross food and watch gross videos off the webitubes. I'd think it highly doubtful she's ever been this dolled up since her graduation perp-walk, and that would have been mostly hidden by the identity-obliterating gown.

As one of the big boobied bunch on here, I can saw with some authority, that it's not remotely beyond the pale that this is the first compliment Mar-Bear's rack has ever received. And yes, as Neskah has already pointed out obliquely, her smile in panel 3B is awesome. Also, it's not only normal for people to be asymmetric, but it's actually abnormal to not be. Everyone has something different about their... faces... left to right. It's the way things work.

In fact, Jeph seems to have a visual meme going with characters in panels 3A and 3B being shown very similarly, but with a slight change in facial expression. Compare today's with http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1643 .

OMG! Love GWS and Wapsi! But you forgot the that buxom madgirl Agatha Heterodyne on GirlGenius. Of course, your point is webcomics that make more of characters' breasts than average, and Agatha's never lost a kitten in hers. Strange, considering a certain previous comics project of the Professors Foglio.

[stevelore]

Kudos to Jeph for making a big-boob joke that's actually rather touching, and working in Dora's "up front" pun too. As someone said above, the Marigold-drawing is excellent.

Lol. You're a guy, right? That's REALLY not how women with insecurity issues see themselves.

I'm astounded to find myself agreeing with Jack  , but yeah. And actually we all have insecurity issues.

Hey, I'm not that evil.   Plus I only remember that one time we've disagreed!  Snubnose is my nemesis on these boards.

As for the poster above--I gotta say, in comparison to most webcomic cartoonists (male and female)? Jeph's focus on breasts is minimal.

I'm not a crusader out patrolling for comics to yell about, so I just comment when I see something worth complaining about.

Also, note that "in comparison to most webcomic cartoonists" doesn't address whether or not Jeph's focus on breasts is harmful perpetuation of patriarchal gender norms, but rather, avoids the issue entirely and points out that there are more heinous offenders.  In one sense, it is better to try and reform the moderate offenders, since they are probably less likely to revel in the misogyny.  In another sense, wrong is wrong, whether or not other people are worse. So, either way, I think my criticism stands.

Lastly, I think that first comic you included is at least plausibly read as commentary on (rather than mere participation in) gender norms and the sexual-objectification of women.

[JackFaerie]

Also, note that "in comparison to most webcomic cartoonists" doesn't address whether or not Jeph's focus on breasts is harmful perpetuation of patriarchal gender norms, but rather, avoids the issue entirely and points out that there are more heinous offenders.  In one sense, it is better to try and reform the moderate offenders, since they are probably less likely to revel in the misogyny.  In another sense, wrong is wrong, whether or not other people are worse. So, either way, I think my criticism stands.

I will respectfully disagree. I find QC to be one of the comics that objectifies women the least, AND presents a variety of body types and shapes.  Most women in QC are modestly-to-moderately-sized, chest-wise (which is refreshing all in itself, lemme tell ya). The way it does talk about breasts, when it talks about them, strikes me as realistic and reflecting my own experiences among women. And it's mostly female characters (not always, but mostly) who talk about breasts.

Lastly, I think that first comic you included is at least plausibly read as commentary on (rather than mere participation in) gender norms and the sexual-objectification of women.

Yeah, but that comic talks a LOT about Jamie's breasts and how great they are, and the art routinely draws the viewer's focus to them.











Is it having fun with the subject? Yeah. It's also quite reveling in looking at Jamie's breasts and presenting them to be looked at. But that's not always bad, and I think QC is even less objectionable on this front.

[tomart]

Hey, Stevelore, as others are (and will continue) pointing out to you, very many of us LIKE boobage in our webcomics.  And I will semi-respectfully suggest that if you don't like what Jeph is writing and drawing, go find something you like better.  But please, PLEASE don't push a prudish, censorship mentality on the Internets. The restrictive Moral Guardians have already sanitized most media and expression, especially in America; they'd like nothing better than to shut down our online freedoms too.

Whether you're one of them, thinly disguising your agenda with obfuscation, I don't know, and really don't care. But if you can't enjoy creative expression without trying to censor it, JUST STOP.  GO AWAY.  

..." harmful perpetuation of patriarchal gender norms "

??????????????   As liberal and open-minded as Jeph has been?  NOT EVEN PLAUSIBLE.

.... it is better to try and reform the moderate offenders, ...

By "reform" do you mean "intimidate"?  And that's assuming there's something OFFENSIVE here, besides your rediculous, inappropriate nonsense.

[JackFaerie]

Hey, Stevelore, as others are (and will continue) pointing out to you, very many of us LIKE boobage in our webcomics.

Ugh ugh ugh, this is NOT what I was pointing out. And even if that's true, that's probably a good reason NOT to depict boobs. Ugh. "I like to leer at women, pander some more to my penis!" is not a good argument here, please go away.

..." harmful perpetuation of patriarchal gender norms "

??????????????   As liberal and open-minded as Jeph has been?  NOT EVEN PLAUSIBLE.

DUDE. STOP. That is so wrong I don't even. I agree with you that Jeph is NOT necessarily doing that, but just because a person claims to have certain sympathies does NOT mean they are incapable of acting against those sympathies or can be automatically excused.  Even if you claim to the biggest supporter of feminism or anti-racism or whatever, it is still possible for you to act in a way that's sexist or racist.

[stevelore]

Also, note that "in comparison to most webcomic cartoonists" doesn't address whether or not Jeph's focus on breasts is harmful perpetuation of patriarchal gender norms, but rather, avoids the issue entirely and points out that there are more heinous offenders.  In one sense, it is better to try and reform the moderate offenders, since they are probably less likely to revel in the misogyny.  In another sense, wrong is wrong, whether or not other people are worse. So, either way, I think my criticism stands.

I will respectfully disagree. I find QC to be one of the comics that objectifies women the least, AND presents a variety of body types and shapes.  Most women in QC are modestly-to-moderately-sized, chest-wise (which is refreshing all in itself, lemme tell ya). The way it does talk about breasts, when it talks about them, strikes me as realistic and reflecting my own experiences among women. And it's mostly female characters (not always, but mostly) who talk about breasts.

Lastly, I think that first comic you included is at least plausibly read as commentary on (rather than mere participation in) gender norms and the sexual-objectification of women.

Yeah, but that comic talks a LOT about Jamie's breasts and how great they are, and the art routinely draws the viewer's focus to them.


Is it having fun with the subject? Yeah. It's also quite reveling in looking at Jamie's breasts and presenting them to be looked at. But that's not always bad, and I think QC is even less objectionable on this front.

Given that context (the string of other comics you linked), you are probably right about that being more breast focused than Jeph.

On your first comment (to the effect that Jeph portrays a wider range of body types than usual), I have to disagree, there are basically two (maybe two and  a half) body-types represented among women, the Dora/Hanners/Raven/Penelope body type, and the Marigold/Faye body type (the "and a half" is that I can see not quite putting penelope with Dora and Hanners).  Anyway, the representation of various body types is a separate issue, and I wasn't meaning to rag on Jeph for the body types he chose to portray, but for the way in which the comic has started focusing on those choices.

[JackFaerie]

On your first comment (to the effect that Jeph portrays a wider range of body types than usual), I have to disagree, there are basically two (maybe two and  a half) body-types represented among women, the Dora/Hanners/Raven/Penelope body type, and the Marigold/Faye body type (the "and a half" is that I can see not quite putting penelope with Dora and Hanners).  Anyway, the representation of various body types is a separate issue, and I wasn't meaning to rag on Jeph for the body types he chose to portray, but for the way in which the comic has started focusing on those choices.

Really? Uh. I don't know what body type you are, but I very much disagree on putting several of those women into the same category.

1. Dora/Hanners: skinny straight-up-and-down, leggy, small-perky breasts.

2. Penelope: slender, most "normative-ideal" shape, with average breasts and hip width, very evenly proportioned.

3. Raven: voluptuous, with generous curves and some flesh on her.

4. Faye/Marigold: busty, but pear-shaped, with ample hips and thighs, heavier in weight.

5. Tai: boyish.

Plus the various background ladies, who (happily!) mostly have some kind of variation on a pear-shape, as most women in fact do.  To me, as someone who HAS been insecure about my body, it is very nice to see the range of shapes represented. The only drawback is that we haven't had any fat characters.

To this, if anything, what we have is dearth of representation of men. We have... tall and skinny (Sven, Dale, Marten, Angus) and... tall and slightly-less-skinny (Steve). And maybe short-and-skinny.

And again, despite what some other people have to say, I think the boob talk has been pretty modest. And there has been talk of men's asses and pecs and I'm very very grateful to Jeph for the way he portrayed Sven, and that he did not shy away from sexyfying him on occasion.  (I'd say Sven was far more often objectified in the comic throughout their relationship than Faye was.)

[snubnose]

On your first comment (to the effect that Jeph portrays a wider range of body types than usual), I have to disagree, there are basically two (maybe two and  a half) body-types represented among women, the Dora/Hanners/Raven/Penelope body type, and the Marigold/Faye body type (the "and a half" is that I can see not quite putting penelope with Dora and Hanners).  Anyway, the representation of various body types is a separate issue, and I wasn't meaning to rag on Jeph for the body types he chose to portray, but for the way in which the comic has started focusing on those choices.

Err what ?

None of these people have the same kind of body.

Hanners is more slim and has less boobs than even Dora.

Tai is smaller than anybody else, including Hanners, also quite thin, but has average boobage unless she hides them intentionally.

Raven is nowhere near Dora at all. She's really busty.

Faye is chubby and busty.

Marigold is not as chubby as Faye, but apparently has more boobs.

Theres also other people like Cosette who are simply average on all accounts.

[stevelore]

... prudish, censorship mentality [...] shut down online freedoms too.

[...] But if you can't enjoy creative expression without trying to censor it, JUST STOP.  GO AWAY.  

By "reform" do you mean "intimidate"?  [...]

There are a lot of problems with what you said.  Briefly they are:
1) One is permitted to disagree with and comment on an artist's choices in forums for discussing that art.  It is not necessary for everyone to simply applaud every decision made in its entirety.You are confusing criticism with censorship.
2) I was not motivated by prudery, but by concern over the representation of gender norms.  Support for my not being a crazy prude is that I was also lobbying for _more_ focus on alternative sexuality, which does not often go hand in hand with the sort of prudishness you've accused me of.
3) I was not suggesting that too many characters in the strip had large breasts, and that jeph should extract all breasts from the comic, but that the dialogue and humor in the comic should not focus on women's bodies as sexual objects to the extent that it does.
4) You confuse criticism and complaint with censorship.
5) You confuse voicing an opinion with an attempt at "intimidation".
6) You confusedly think that anything anyone posts on an online forum could have a serious impact on "internet freedoms".

I am not able to censor Jeph's work, nor was I indicating that I should be in a position to censor Jeph's work.  Censorship would involve unilateral control over what Jeph is permitted to post on the internet.  I have no control over what he puts on the internet.  I do have opinions, and I can attempt to influence him by making my case.  This, of course, is how people interact when attempting to change things they dislike about the world through civilized means.  The most sensible place to express my opinions about Jeph's work is on the forums devoted to his work (perhaps in a sub-forum that is titled "Questionable Content Discussion" whose topic is the specific comics I wished to comment on).

Intimidation would require some sort of implicit (or explicit) threat.  But I made no threats (implicit or explicit).  I didn't even suggest that I would badmouth the strip or try and get other people not to read it, let alone levy any threat of any sort.  Consequently, I was not assaulting freedom on the internet, but instead, participating in a free exchange of opinion about some art that has been presented to the public via the internet.  I was taking advantage of the freedom we all have to voice our opinions about this work.  Since the forums are Jeph's, he actually has the authority to restrict what can be said here, so if he were opposed to people criticizing the gender dynamics in his art, he could actually institute a policy to forbid such discussions, but he hasn't.

Ultimately, the saddest part of your post is the degree to which you feel threatened, intimidated, frightened and "censored" by someone pointing out that there might be something wrong with overdoing the focus on women as objects of sexual interest.

[HiFranc]

steve,

I take it you're a long time reader?  Without spending hours on an archive trawl I can't comment whether, statistically speaking, there has been a rise in the number of mentions.  I wasn't thinking about boob references but, now they've been raised, I can remember phrases such as "these Georgia peaches" and "right in the nipple".  I think it would take a little more time to see if the number of mentions is significant and, if it is above the background level, whether it'll be sustained.

Bear in mind that some references may be made in the forum and that may give a worse impression than is true.  Also bear in mind that, for the moment, Marigold is someone who pins her self-worth on how others perceive her (especially how attractive she is) so it may be a side-effect of that.

Jack,

steve maybe right in there being a trend.  I don't know and, to tell the truth, I think it's too early to say.  However, people change and webcomics change over time so it may be something to watch out for.

[Odin]

Awww, today's comic is cute. Dora is surprisingly good at this!

Running away instead of being up front about how she felt about it and having an actual discussion with the people she's offended by is what makes her pathetic.

I'm confused by your interpretation of events.

1. I don't see why "running away" is bad here: it's allowable to take some time out to process new information before acting, and in fact smart, and that's what I see Marigold doing. She got some new information that threw her for a loop, it hurt her and sent her emotions reeling, so she went outside to sit down where she wasn't under the eyes of everybody and let herself deal with the pain and think a little and sort herself out.  I didn't realize that "maturity" required one to process all one's emotions in public all the time.

The fact that she is still pining away over Angus to the point where the very notion of him flirting with someone else causes her to flee the area is objectively damning when it comes to talking about how mature she is.

2. Why would she need to be upfront about how she feels with anyone? If anything, that seems to be a bad idea. She feels hurt and betrayed. She also recognizes that nobody meant to either hurt or betray her. Her feelings are not invalid, but they are also not anyone's business--if anything, telling Faye or Angus how she feels would be inflicting unnecessary discomfort on them.  This is the kind of situation where you take stock of your emotions and sort them out on your own, or with a friend.  Some things are just your own problem, and so long as you realize that, it's best to keep it to yourself while you work it out.  Example: a mother finds out that her son is gay. She thinks she's ok with it until he brings his boyfriend home, and she feels disgusted when she sees them kissing goodbye outside. This is not a case for her to tell either her son or his boyfriend about her feelings--this is precisely a case where she needs to take a personal breather, or call a friend, and try to figure out how she can be supportive of her son while acknowledging (to herself, not to him) her discomfort. I see Marigold's discomfort with the Faye/Angus situation as similar in terms of how much of Marigold's feelings need to be shared.

And yet, given all that you argued there, you still think Marten (or anybody else) should have babied Marigold and told her about Angus going after Faye? Nobody was hiding it from her, Angus even had a conversation with her about it prior to the sub-arc where she had a crush on him (everyone just conveniently forgot this event in the aftermath).

Bitch is crazy.

3. I don't think she's offended by anyone, just hurt.  And no one really did anything offensive, except for Faye thinking this party was a good idea, and that's more "stupid" than "intentionally hurtful" anyway. And since no one wanted to hurt her or did anything offensive, I don't see why she's supposed to offer her emotions up on a platter rather than be allowed her privacy.

Well, since no one actually did anything offensive, Marigold is just a crazy, hyper-senstive attention-whoring bitch!

She acts the way she does to fish for validation/compliments from people. She doesn't need the regular QC crew for friends, she needs a good CBT (Behavioral Therapy, not ball torture you perverts) program as well as general therapy to sort her shit out.

I'm a bitch!

You should spend more time being offended by Marigold's character "development" after drawing parallels between her relationships with Angus and Faye compared to Marten's track in his relationships with Faye and Dora (short version: the guy pretty quickly gets over himself and dates someone else; the chick refuses to take the hint and is becoming steadily more unstable/unlikeable).

[stevelore]

On your first comment (to the effect that Jeph portrays a wider range of body types than usual), I have to disagree, there are basically two (maybe two and  a half) body-types represented among women, the Dora/Hanners/Raven/Penelope body type, and the Marigold/Faye body type (the "and a half" is that I can see not quite putting penelope with Dora and Hanners).  Anyway, the representation of various body types is a separate issue, and I wasn't meaning to rag on Jeph for the body types he chose to portray, but for the way in which the comic has started focusing on those choices.

Really? Uh. I don't know what body type you are, but I very much disagree on putting several of those women into the same category.

1. Dora/Hanners: skinny straight-up-and-down, leggy, small-perky breasts.

2. Penelope: slender, most "normative-ideal" shape, with average breasts and hip width, very evenly proportioned.

3. Raven: voluptuous, with generous curves and some flesh on her.

4. Faye/Marigold: busty, but pear-shaped, with ample hips and thighs, heavier in weight.

5. Tai: boyish.

Plus the various background ladies, who (happily!) mostly have some kind of variation on a pear-shape, as most women in fact do.  To me, as someone who HAS been insecure about my body, it is very nice to see the range of shapes represented. The only drawback is that we haven't had any fat characters.

To this, if anything, what we have is dearth of representation of men. We have... tall and skinny (Sven, Dale, Marten, Angus) and... tall and slightly-less-skinny (Steve). And maybe short-and-skinny.

And again, despite what some other people have to say, I think the boob talk has been pretty modest. And there has been talk of men's asses and pecs and I'm very very grateful to Jeph for the way he portrayed Sven, and that he did not shy away from sexyfying him on occasion.  (I'd say Sven was far more often objectified in the comic throughout their relationship than Faye was.)

Re: Body-types: that's a fair point.  I think I was assuming that Faye and Marigold were supposed to be representing actually-heavy body types, which is why I was lumping the other one's together (and Raven hasn't been around recently, so I sort of forgot her body type).  I certainly wouldn't be upset if there were more of a range of male body-types, but as I noted in a comment above, objectification of men is simply much less of an issue than objectification of women, given the actual state of gender politics (a similar point extends to why I have no strong objection to the sexy-fying of Sven).

Since society devalues and disenfranchises women, various attitudes and activities that might empower women relative to men are less objectionable/problematic than similar activities which further empower men over women (or perpetuate the system of male-empowerment already in place).

[stevelore]

I'm a bitch!

You should spend more time being offended by Marigold's character "development" after drawing parallels between her relationships with Angus and Faye compared to Marten's track in his relationships with Faye and Dora (short version: the guy pretty quickly gets over himself and dates someone else; the chick refuses to take the hint and is becoming steadily more unstable/unlikeable).

Actually, it's spelled "Stevelore".

[Nightson]

The fact that she is still pining away over Angus to the point where the very notion of him flirting with someone else causes her to flee the area is objectively damning when it comes to talking about how mature she is.

Oh please.  She had a crush on him, a fairly strong one by all indications.  And now very recently after being let down, she is faced with "He didn't want me because he wants another girl"  And that stings like fuck all.  Trying to portray seeking a moment of away time to compose herself as some sort of sign of emotional immaturity is ridiculous. 

[jwhouk]

Well, Jeph's said he finds drawing Dora difficult. I would say that he's drawing her eyes too small, and her jaw/cheeks too round. A rounder face looks good on Faye and Marigold, who have different proportions and longer hair to frame their faces, but on Dora it just looks out of balance and like her lower face is swollen. And a round jaw in combination with the small eyes and short hair makes her look unnecessarily butch.

See?



Although also, man, that haircut is just not the most flattering.

I know Jeph has a PITA time trying to draw her, but I'm thinking she's closer to the one on the right. Angular, thinner face with a longer nose.

I know other artists do what are called "profile sketches" that show a character in various poses; maybe Jeph needs to do some more of these for Dora, keeping in mind what her features are.

[JackFaerie]

Odin:

The fact that she is still pining away over Angus to the point where the very notion of him flirting with someone else causes her to flee the area is objectively damning when it comes to talking about how mature she is.

Oh please.  She had a crush on him, a fairly strong one by all indications.  And now very recently after being let down, she is faced with "He didn't want me because he wants another girl"  And that stings like fuck all.  Trying to portray seeking a moment of away time to compose herself as some sort of sign of emotional immaturity is ridiculous.  

Agreed. So is saying that she's a "hyper-sensitive attention-whoring bitch" for being offended, when you're the only one who's saying she's offended in the first place. (The comic certainly doesn't.)

But you, uh, seem to have an issue in this particular debate at arguing against points that you're making up yourself--for instance, I never said that anyone was obligated to tell Marigold about Faye and Angus, so I have no idea what you're talking about here:

you still think Marten (or anybody else) should have babied Marigold and told her about Angus going after Faye?

Another point: when people run out of a party to sit by themselves on the porch, they usually do that because they're trying to escape attention.

Going up to Faye and Angus and yelling at them about it would have been immature.  What she's doing? Totally fine.

[TAG]

Well, Jeph's said he finds drawing Dora difficult. I would say that he's drawing her eyes too small, and her jaw/cheeks too round. A rounder face looks good on Faye and Marigold, who have different proportions and longer hair to frame their faces, but on Dora it just looks out of balance and like her lower face is swollen. And a round jaw in combination with the small eyes and short hair makes her look unnecessarily butch.

See?

*Image Snipped*

Although also, man, that haircut is just not the most flattering.

Ah nice, I thought something looked off with Dora in that panel, but just thought it was the hair.  Nice alteration.

The expression in panel 6 was really well drawn though.

[jwhouk]

Came across a "Word Of God" quote from 1473, about how self-aware Marigold isn't:

"...I don't think Marigold is really like that* (and last thing my comic needs is yet another super-detached female character who is constantly self-analyzing and quipping about everything she says)."

(* - being self-aware)

[Odin]

I'm a bitch!

You should spend more time being offended by Marigold's character "development" after drawing parallels between her relationships with Angus and Faye compared to Marten's track in his relationships with Faye and Dora (short version: the guy pretty quickly gets over himself and dates someone else; the chick refuses to take the hint and is becoming steadily more unstable/unlikeable).

Actually, it's spelled "Stevelore".

Care to actually respond to my point, or are you just going to stick with validating it?

The fact that she is still pining away over Angus to the point where the very notion of him flirting with someone else causes her to flee the area is objectively damning when it comes to talking about how mature she is.

Oh please.  She had a crush on him, a fairly strong one by all indications.  And now very recently after being let down, she is faced with "He didn't want me because he wants another girl"  And that stings like fuck all.  Trying to portray seeking a moment of away time to compose herself as some sort of sign of emotional immaturity is ridiculous.  

Marigold has never sought a "moment" of away time to compose herself in her entire history of the comic. Every time she's fled from something she has absolutely refused to return to it without some form of extreme threat that is even worse than what she's running from going after her (like Momo threatening to tell Angus that she'd masturbated herself into a state of severe dehydration if she didn't stop moping and get out of the house).

And even that aside, no mentally healthy adult mopes the way Marigold does whenever they don't get their way. Period.

Odin:

The fact that she is still pining away over Angus to the point where the very notion of him flirting with someone else causes her to flee the area is objectively damning when it comes to talking about how mature she is.

Oh please.  She had a crush on him, a fairly strong one by all indications.  And now very recently after being let down, she is faced with "He didn't want me because he wants another girl"  And that stings like fuck all.  Trying to portray seeking a moment of away time to compose herself as some sort of sign of emotional immaturity is ridiculous.  

Agreed. So is saying that she's a "hyper-sensitive attention-whoring bitch" for being offended, when you're the only one who's saying she's offended in the first place. (The comic certainly doesn't.)

Panels 2, 3, & 4 read more like being offended over not being straight-up told something than actually hurt over the context.

And I'm not saying she's a hyper-sensitive attention whoring bitch because she's offended, but because of how she's consistently reacting to everything even remotely negative the same way (dramatic exit, refusal to return until someone begs or threatens her into doing it).

But you, uh, seem to have an issue in this particular debate at arguing against points that you're making up yourself--for instance, I never said that anyone was obligated to tell Marigold about Faye and Angus, so I have no idea what you're talking about here:

you still think Marten (or anybody else) should have babied Marigold and told her about Angus going after Faye?

Maybe that wasn't you arguing that, but one of you people were (using much of the same reasoning you had in your point #2 as the basis for it, which is probably why I thought you said it).

Another point: when people run out of a party to sit by themselves on the porch, they usually do that because they're trying to escape attention.

Going up to Faye and Angus and yelling at them about it would have been immature.  What she's doing? Totally fine.

Way to completely ignore my previous post saying she should have actually talked to Angus about it, or talked to Marten/Tai/Hannelore rather than running off like an overgrown teenager.

[snubnose]

I'm kinda wondering a lot now what Marigold will do now.

I mean, even she should know that a woman with such an "equipment" can basically get any man she wants.