Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCT: 7-11 June 2010 (1681-1685)
Moxie:
--- Quote from: TAG on 07 Jun 2010, 21:40 ---
--- Quote from: Moxie on 07 Jun 2010, 21:26 ---Except that Faye's punches do bruise the person she's punching, even if the person was only being a smartass. Sure, perhaps she doesn't punch out of real anger/jealousy, but she does leave a mark identical to the punches that are punched with that intent.
--- End quote ---
So. What.
You're focusing on the bruise and not the consent. None of her "victims" seem to to see it as more than playful. They aren't drugged or drunk or being taken advantage of. So who are you to condemn consensual adults?
I can understand if play punches aren't part of your clique how it would seem weird, but there are plenty of social circles where it's just as acceptable as being a smart ass or play insulting friends. Those would probably seem weird to outsiders too.
--- End quote ---
I wasn't trying to condemn then, and I certainly don't think I mentioned anything about being drugged/drunk/taken advantage of. I agree that no one seems to take too much offense at Faye's actions. But I disagree that the bruising/harm from Faye's punching doesn't deserve as much consideration as the consent to playful punchings. To phrase a bit differently: does the consent for play punching still count when the person actually becomes injured from the playing punching? I was just trying to point out that Faye's punches don't seem very playful, at least in my view. I understand that people play punch all the time, and sure the intensity behind the punch varies, but Faye punches (even if playing) with the intent to harm (which is why it doesn't seem playful, at least to me).
Also, given that Marten was Faye's target for a lot of the early punchings, at least, and not only did he have low self-esteem at that point in time, he also really liked Faye a lot, and seemed willing to put up with a lot of whatever from her because of that. So was he really consenting because he didn't care, or was he consenting because he didn't feel comfortable speaking against it/was afraid he'd lose Faye if he did?
Faye is really a physically violent person, whether or not her reaction seems fitting for the situation (though she will apologize if she reacts instinctually). Sure, her circle of friends doesn't seem to mind, and even tease her about it, and of course every group has its own dynamics. I think Faye just takes it too far, and I wouldn't be surprised if eventually she really did seriously injure someone because she feels the person "deserves" her physical anger wrath.
Incidentally, I think Angus maybe got too physically close to Faye, since she reacts most often with violence when that happens.
TAG:
--- Quote from: Moxie on 07 Jun 2010, 22:00 ---
--- Quote from: TAG on 07 Jun 2010, 21:40 ---*clipped*
--- End quote ---
I wasn't trying to condemn then, and I certainly don't think I mentioned anything about being drugged/drunk/taken advantage of.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, that was sort of responding to Jack.
--- Quote ---To phrase a bit differently: does the consent for play punching still count when the person actually becomes injured from the playing punching?
--- End quote ---
Why wouldn't it? It's not an isolated incident, they not only shrug it off but continue to freely associate with Faye without telling her off for it.
--- Quote --- but Faye punches (even if playing) with the intent to harm (which is why it doesn't seem playful, at least to me).
--- End quote ---
Fair enough, but she never punches anyone who objects to that. You may as well condemn all roughhousing and sports. Faye is nothing but consistent with this and yet its not considered serious by Martin, Angus, or even Pintsize. As far as I can remember, Faye has never intentionally hurt, even with an accidentally strong play punch, someone who did not already expect this sort of behavior; Dora has never been punched hard despite multiple cases of tickling and molesting Faye, for instance.
--- Quote ---Also, given that Marten was Faye's target for a lot of the early punchings, at least, and not only did he have low self-esteem at that point in time, he also really liked Faye a lot, and seemed willing to put up with a lot of whatever from her because of that. So was he really consenting because he didn't care, or was he consenting because he didn't feel comfortable speaking against it/was afraid he'd lose Faye if he did?
--- End quote ---
Fair point, for the beginning of the relationship. However, he's still ok with it now (when he has Dora), and he had two easy outs; once when they moved, and once when Dora asked him to move in with her (post Fayefixation). He clearly doesn't consider the occasional smartass tax as a signifigant enough factor to want to escape, and in fact was very upset at the prospect of moving physically away from her despite no longer pursuing her romantically.
And Angus has received worse injury long before they really knew each-other. In fact, he went out of his way to provoke Faye into it. There was a time where that was the majority of what he knew of Faye and he still pursued her despite it, clearly not negative factor.
--- Quote ---Faye is really a physically violent person,
--- End quote ---
I strongly disagree. Has she ever lashed out in anger with the intent to seriously harm? The closest might be Pintsize, but he's super durable, potentially doesn't feel it much, and clearly doesn't consider it a serious threat worth of avoiding Faye for. The worst injuries she's inflicted have been play punches that the recipients seem not to care about or outright accept.
Basically, if that's what they like, who cares. None of those characters needs a knight to save them from the Fayedragon. If they don't want to put up with it, they'll speak up. Until then there is no point to jump to their preemptive defense and condemn their decision to accept/embrace that aspect of Faye. For her own part, Faye seems relatively restrained and exact as to the level of contact she'll make with any specific one of her friends. You may not relish in the idea of being hit that hard, but if you were Faye's friend, odds are she would not hit you that hard. Different comfort levels, different behavior.
JackFaerie:
To be honest, it doesn't seem to ME like everyone is actually "ok" with the punchings, in the sense of "really does not mind them." Instead, what I see is people not actually enjoying them, but feeling like they're something they have to tolerate, or something that's "not worth making a fuss about," and I am saying it IS worth making a fuss about. Most people, for instance, aren't really allowed to punch Faye back--if Marten or Angus punched her back and left a bruise, there'd be hell to pay. I'm not comfortable with that dynamic, personally. When friends roughhouse and playfully punch each other, usually the point is that it is "each other." Instead, here I'm getting the feeling that the guys just basically feel like they have to put up with it because it would make them look like wusses if they don't. Or that because she's a girl they're somehow obligated to put up with it.
If it weren't a one-way street, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. Take Dora--Dora really does seem to be on an equal level with Faye, she's a girl (and not a shy one) so she can hit back, and she's playfully (but obviously playfully) tickled and molested Faye before. Note that Faye has NEVER hit Dora with the same force as Marten or Angus. Or even possibly at all, I can't recall. (I know that Dora punched Faye on the shoulder once, but that was very exaggeratedly drawn to be a strictly playful, and seemingly light, friendly mock-punching.) This tells me that: with a person who might hit her back, Faye does not punch, and definitely not forcefully enough to bruise. So... she only punches the guys, because they can't hit back? Not cool.
Moxie:
--- Quote from: TAG on 07 Jun 2010, 22:31 ---
--- Quote from: Moxie ---but Faye punches (even if playing) with the intent to harm (which is why it doesn't seem playful, at least to me).
--- End quote ---
Fair enough, but she never punches anyone who objects to that. You may as well condemn all roughhousing and sports. Faye is nothing but consistent with this and yet its not considered serious by Martin, Angus, or even Pintsize. As far as I can remember, Faye has never intentionally hurt, even with an accidentally strong play punch, someone who did not already expect this sort of behavior; Dora has never been punched hard despite multiple cases of tickling and molesting Faye, for instance.
--- End quote ---
I thought it was interesting that Faye does only seem to punch males, so I actually have been archive crawling to see if she did punch any females. You're right that Dora gets away with a lot concerning Faye, and it sort of seems to start here. Marten tells Faye she's loosening up, but it was Dora who grabbed at her, and apparently it didn't even seem to occur to Faye to punch Dora over that (despite the fact had it been a male, all other signs point to Faye automatically reacting with a punch). I'm not sure if it stems from her issues with her dad and trusting men, or what. Anyway, I also found this where Faye uses her issues to distract her sister before boob-punching her (which really hurts!) So, Faye has indeed punched a female, and her mother witnesses it and admits she would fake cry to (her brother?) to distract him for punches. So maybe this is just a learned behavior for Faye anyway.
(EDIT: Now, I know that dynamics between siblings and friends are very different, and making fun of oneself versus friends making fun of one's flaws is a different situation, but seeing Faye react to her sister there - haha, used my issues and pulled on over on you! - and seeing her reaction here - when an irritated Marten has to deal with a mess and Faye makes a remark that ticks him off more, so he sort of calls her an alcoholic and she gets all "waah, how could you be so mean and inconsiderate of my issues!" with him - is annoying to me. Faye seems to have some inconsistent standards regarding what people can do/say to her, especially concerning what she can do to males and how that can be retaliated. I don't wanna invalidate her issues, but I do think that Faye sits on an awful high horse.)
--- Quote from: TAG ---
--- Quote from: Moxie ---Also, given that Marten was Faye's target for a lot of the early punchings, at least, and not only did he have low self-esteem at that point in time, he also really liked Faye a lot, and seemed willing to put up with a lot of whatever from her because of that. So was he really consenting because he didn't care, or was he consenting because he didn't feel comfortable speaking against it/was afraid he'd lose Faye if he did?
--- End quote ---
Fair point, for the beginning of the relationship. However, he's still ok with it now (when he has Dora), and he had two easy outs; once when they moved, and once when Dora asked him to move in with her (post Fayefixation). He clearly doesn't consider the occasional smartass tax as a signifigant enough factor to want to escape, and in fact was very upset at the prospect of moving physically away from her despite no longer pursuing her romantically.
And Angus has received worse injury long before they really knew each-other. In fact, he went out of his way to provoke Faye into it. There was a time where that was the majority of what he knew of Faye and he still pursued her despite it, clearly not negative factor.
--- End quote ---
Haha, honestly Marten and Faye's dynamics baffle me - her behavior towards him was really cruel, I always thought. I think she's a much better person now (yay character growth!) and I'd bet Marten does too, which then makes sense why he doesn't want to lose her as a friend. At any rate, more power to him for that. I don't necessarily agree with his choices in not speaking up to Faye, but whatever.
I agree with you about Angus ('cause you're talking about her throwing him across the room, right?), but I can't agree that he knowingly provoked Faye into that sort of violence. I mean, Faye tells him she's gonna throw him through a plate-glass window, but this is the first time he's talked with her outside of CoD, isn't it? As far as he knows, Faye's all sass - she just says stuff, it's all a joke. I would definitely say he goaded her, but I don't think he really believed she would do such a thing. Though yeah, he continues his pursuit of her, so I guess she just is all about the intrigue for him. (And to his credit, in the current comic he doesn't try to make excuses or anything - he takes it as par for the course...which I suppose he'd after to, after being impressed with her ability to throw him across a room earlier).
--- Quote from: TAG ---
--- Quote from: Moxie ---Faye is really a physically violent person,
--- End quote ---
I strongly disagree. Has she ever lashed out in anger with the intent to harm? The closest might be Pintsize, but he's super durable, potentially doesn't feel it much, and clearly doesn't consider it a serious threat worth of avoiding Faye for. The worst injuries she's inflicted have been play punches that the recipients seem not to care about or outright accept.
--- End quote ---
I just meant it in the sense that physical violence seems to always be her fallback - Faye almost always seems to hit first, ask questions second. Or something to that effect. (Haha, and yes, I believe she did lash out in anger when she threw Angus across the room!) EDIT: She has also admitted to using violence as a method to getting a male's attention.
TAG:
Sorry one last response before bed.
@Jack
You have good points, but as I've said before, both Martin and Angus had ways to surreptitiously extract themselves from a relationship with Faye if they cared. In Angus' case he was still drawn to her despite little else other than a sharp wit and tongue.
As to the point about Dora, I guess we see that differently. I think she doesn't hit Dora because she knows Dora would not be ok with it, the same way she doesn't hit Raven or even Penny. Heck, she doesn't even hit Steve to the best of my recall abilities and he's probably physically most capable of handling it. Nor do I recall her hitting Sven till they were sleeping together. She does, however, hit her sister (right in the teat), and I somehow don't see her sister as a retaliation safe target. In other words, she really only hits people who she is / wants to be comfortable with and who are willing to tolerate it. Honestly I've seen it in real life as an endearment / social thing so often that this just doesn't seem weird to me at all.
Edit:
Gah clearly I am too slow.
@Moxie
Re:Angus, it's alluded that she's thrown coffee of varying degrees at him several times, as well as tossing him out of the bar. And I would say he goes out of his way. Meeting at the bar may originally have been a coincidence but she told him to leave her alone and he persisted. On a similar note he bought the silly purple shirt to provoke her into snark, and, since he never actually drinks his coffee, he was only there to provoke her into snark ever. He was kinda creepy / stalkerish in that behavior, to be fair.
Re: Faye
I mostly covered things in the Jack response you hit on several of the issues too in your own post.
Note, I never said Faye was a particularly good person of even a particularly good friend (better than Marigold though, or at least less grating ;P); I just thought people's accusation that she was truly abusive are overstated. She has grown, she still has issues (that she's at least occasionally trying to work through), but I don't think she or Martin or Angus see "Fayemergancies" as anything more than terms of endearment. And I think the point that she never strikes out in real anger is important.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version