Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Theory on Penelope
raoullefere:
--- Quote from: Alex C on 27 Jun 2010, 18:17 ---I always thought that comment was more than a li'l unfair to Fred given that he was considered an amazing perfectionist and choreographer as well as a dancer.
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He was, and as far as I'm concerned, the statement has nothing to do with belittling Fred, an artist I've come to admire more and more over the years since I grew up*. Many people used to say that Ginger Rogers 'simply followed Fred's lead,' and that's what, to me at any rate, is unfair. If anything, she had to anticipate him. And yet, I promise that if Astaire simply showed up to dance, he'd still get paid more.
--- Quote from: Akima on 27 Jun 2010, 18:46 ---The establishment of harems and the like is never about the value of the women, but is always a symbol of the wealth and status of the man. Whether the "collecting" is parallel as in the Middle-East, or serial as in Australia or the USA, the message is always the same. "Valuing" women on the same basis as a piles of gold, big houses or fancy cars, is to rate them as equivalent to inanimate objects. The term "trophy wife" sums that attitude up nicely.
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Which is why I say the word 'value' is a dangerous, ambiguous term to use. One must stipulate for what the individual is being valued. Honestly, I'd say that far, far too many pro athletes are almost in the same boat as those women we're discussing, the only difference being that, theoretically, they are free to choose for themselves. Although how a kid with a far less than half-assed high school education is expected to negotiate contracts well enough to do that wisely is less than clear. Many are at the mercy of their agents and managers, whatever sex those persons happen to be. That's where lovely people like Don King come in.
This is interesting. We're in a thread about Penelope, debating something she'd probably weigh in on and then hyperventilate. Anyone up for that part? :-D
*So to speak.
Alex C:
--- Quote from: raoullefere on 27 Jun 2010, 20:17 --- he'd still get paid more.
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For what it's worth, I agree with you in regards to the general topic you're talking about and realize that the Ginger Rogers comment is just a tiny subset of a larger conversation in which I have nothing to really add. It's just that the "backwards and in heels," thing has sometimes been used as a pithy shorthand for this issue in general and I get distracted by it 'cuz Fred was a much better dancer and I'm a huge film nerd. There really was a time in her career where Ginger really did mostly just follow his lead, because she didn't really have training or experience in partnered dance so they covered for it in part with good choreography as she applied herself, like in their first partnered scene in which a certain endearing coltishness was part of the charm. But hey, she was genuinely good at the partnered thing after a film or two (although she never really could tap worth a damn) and had always been a much better at acting than Fred (she won an Academy Award, eventually.) You could make the argument that she was the better entertainer, overall, really, and I wouldn't argue it, but Fred buried her as a dancer.
jwhouk:
--- Quote from: Near Lurker on 27 Jun 2010, 20:16 ---
--- Quote from: jwhouk on 27 Jun 2010, 19:18 ---
--- Quote from: Akima on 27 Jun 2010, 18:46 ---<snip>
There is a FIFA Women's World Cup too incidentally, but you'd be hard-put to know it, or watch any of the action, since it gets barely any media attention, and I suspect that the combined pay of all the players in the tournament would be less than that of one David Beckham. Also, I live in Australia, and down here (men's) sport is the national religion.
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That's funny, because the USA Women's World Cup squad is better known than the men's. (And NOT just because of Brandi Chastain's top-removal.)
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Since I'm an American... who two days ago was in a packed bar watching us get knocked out... and just had to check whether the tournaments overlapped or were staggered... I'm going to say you're full of it.
(Who's Brandi Chastain?)
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Ms. Chastain was the one who scored the winning goal in penalty kicks in the 1999 Women's World Cup. After scoring the goal to complete the win over China, she disrobed, revealing her sports bra.
raoullefere:
--- Quote from: Alex C on 28 Jun 2010, 01:43 ---It's just that the "backwards and in heels," thing has sometimes been used as a pithy shorthand for this issue in general and I get distracted by it 'cuz Fred was a much better dancer and I'm a huge film nerd.
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If it makes you feel better, put in Cyd Charisse instead (although she didn't do tap that I recall). Personally, though, I like watching Fred and Ginger dance together better, and for the general public I suspect those partnered dances were what sold the movies. For sheer dancing ability, Charisse was tops. But for some reason, I prefer to see her dance alone.
Carl-E:
--- Quote from: raoullefere on 27 Jun 2010, 20:17 ---This is interesting. We're in a thread about Penelope, debating something she'd probably weigh in on and then hyperventilate. Anyone up for that part? :-D
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HEEEEEEEEE-HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-HEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE--------
More interesting that theres more agreement in this thread than disagreement...
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