Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Reconciliation - between the sheets.

4 (3.1%)

Platonic Reconciliation.

11 (8.7%)

Hilarious Misunderstanding.

17 (13.4%)

MARTEN RAAAAAAGGGGGEEEE!

26 (20.5%)

DORA RAAAAAAGGGGGEEEE!

0 (0%)

FAYE RAAAAAAGGGGGEEEE!

4 (3.1%)

Hannelore Hulks out!

6 (4.7%)

Sven Seduction!

9 (7.1%)

Cosette Burns down COD, everyone dies.

18 (14.2%)

Pintsize!

8 (6.3%)

Waffles!

24 (18.9%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Pika_power]

I'm actually wracking my brain trying to figure out what people would think were good things for Mom to do, pre cracking the whip (this comic). I mean, all things considered, she's been balancing kindly mom with 'my boy is an adult' really well up until Marten's snarky horseshit set her off just now.

Buying tickets before considering his feelings on the matter, or whether or not he'd want her around after a breakup.

Clearly embarrassing him in front of a cute waitress, despite his protests, the day after he's had a breakup and probably doesn't want to consider anything new.

Demonstrates either social unawareness, or has fun at Marten's expense, depending on how favourably you look at it.

Brings along baby pictures, which Marten has already expressed distaste for in the past. She waits for him to leave, because she knows he'd disapprove of her actions.

Touching raw nerves by openly flirting with Marten's ex's brother. Judging from his reaction here, going off to sleep is Marten's way of dealing with the stress from his mother.

Again openly disregards his feelings and lies to him, so she can go off and comfort his ex. Completely inappropriate behaviour. When he finds out, she denies it, and then, instead of apologising, defends her actions.

All of this not including the most recent strip, which we agree is out of line.

In contrast, she managed to have a nice conversation with Dora. So she succeeds at comforting the person who put her son in the state he's in.

Something along the lines of that with Marten is what she should do. But that's not what people are complaining about. The problem is what she shouldn't do is exactly what she has done. Namely, everything I've just linked to.

[pwhodges]

I thought waffles was a euphemism for sex  

They have, of course, an established place in the comic.

[Mustakyy]

Uh oh.

Somehow, while Ms. Reeds visit has been very entertaining to observe, this wasn't. I do understand that being snarky to your parents isn't the best behaviour (yea, its kinda opposite, i know), but knowing the whole situation at hand, Martens reaction is also quite understandable. He's just crashed and burned from something he held quite important to him, he's suffering consequences from a bender (both from the liquor and the KO, even thou he doesen't know about latter) and somehow i get the feeling that lunch and dinner weren't exactly peachy. And still, he gets totaly chewed up from one measly snarky remark? Imho, kind of double standard. I understand that she is genuinely trying to help out Marten, but the methods she's using dont seem to work as well as planned (well, he ain't moping any more, but im not sure that anger is that much better option either?).

It's also obvious from this page why he didn't try to fight for his relationship with Dora. Sure he may have been sick of her insecurities, but a bigger reason may be that he's been conditioned by Mother to do what women say. So if Dora says it's over, then it's over, no matter if he may think otherwise.

Think you might be on to something with that observation. Makes sense, when you think of it (well atleast to me).

Certainly when a character acts in a way people don't like they're going to comment on it, but it would be cool if we could, you know, tone down some of the hyperbole that goes on around here.

.........snip.......

I'm actually wracking my brain trying to figure out what people would think were good things for Mom to do, pre cracking the whip (this comic). I mean, all things considered, she's been balancing kindly mom with 'my boy is an adult' really well up until Marten's snarky horseshit set her off just now.

Et tu, Brute. (sorry, couldn't resist  )
You had quite good point there, and while I may disagree on some of em, I think that was quite accurate analysis on the hyperbolic reactions.

Im really hoping that the discussion won't transform from nice and civil (well mostly nice and civil) to a river of flame and rage( a.k.a The Thread That Should Not Be Named ) all over again. We may have different opinions, that's good, but please, let's not exaggrate things too much. (thou im hoping that casual smart-assery will be tolerated  )

[jwhouk]

(raises hand slightly)

Point of order?

Uhm, can we stop with the suicide references for a while?

After what happened in Omaha?

...Please?

[The Seldom Killer]

What the hell happened in Omaha?

[westrim]

I mean, a lot of the time things are being used for humor, and are entirely artifice. I have a feeling much of Veronica's embarrassing behavior was supposed to be taken in a lighthearted, funny manner, and only now are we anywhere near Serious Business. Not everything is a federal fucking issue, guys.

The problem is that this isn't a humorous time for Marten. Humor can be worked in, sure (like it was in The Reveal at the beginning of the 500s), but it doesn't work when it's playing directly off of someone who just got hurt badly and keeps on flipping our empathy switches.

linkage!

I bow before your link-fu, and you put it much better than I could have.

(though I'm hoping that casual smart-assery will be tolerated  )

Me too, or I'm screwed.

(raises hand slightly)
Point of order?
Uhm, can we stop with the suicide references for a while?
After what happened in Omaha?
...Please?

Omaha? *Googles* Oh. Wait, who mentioned suicide? And how long after someone suicides badly in Real Life can we mention it again? Because it might be a long wait...

EDIT:

What the hell happened in Omaha?

Google happened.

[Odin]

(raises hand slightly)

Point of order?

Uhm, can we stop with the suicide references for a while?

After what happened in Omaha?

...Please?

No? Thousands of people commit suicide every single day (not to mention the atrocities that happen in Darfur), so stop being so sensitive. This is the Internet, grow thicker skin. I can guarantee you that somewhere else on the Internet someone is making a "tribute" video to the news footage of what happened in Omaha set to Benny Hill music.

As for the comic, I'm thinking Veronica is acting the way she is because she's operating on the assumption that Dora dumped Marten because of something stupid Marten did and not because of how things actually went down because she doesn't know how things actually went down.

She's thinking Dora dumped Marten based on a (correct) view of Marten's past behavior in relationships and doesn't know or realize Dora's own insecurities and the role they played this time. In this light, her actions towards Marten actually make some sense.

[The Seldom Killer]

Googled Omaha suicide, first result was a suicide bombing in Kandahar. Methinks googles UK weighting is a little skewed. What happens when you google it in the US?

[westrim]

No? Thousands of people commit suicide every single day (not to mention the atrocities that happen in Darfur), so stop being so sensitive. This is the Internet, grow thicker skin. I can guarantee you that somewhere else on the Internet someone is making a "tribute" video to the news footage of what happened in Omaha set to Benny Hill music.

As for the comic, I'm thinking Veronica is acting the way she is because she's operating on the assumption that Dora dumped Marten because of something stupid Marten did and not because of how things actually went down because she doesn't know how things actually went down.

She's thinking Dora dumped Marten based on a (correct) view of Marten's past behavior in relationships and doesn't know or realize Dora's own insecurities and the role they played this time. In this light, her actions towards Marten actually make some sense.

Most of them don't take others with them, though. and there are not 365,000+ suicides every year. Try tens of people.

As for Veronica, no her actions do not make sense because she can ask him. I have no sympathy for mistakes made due to assumptions.

Googled Omaha suicide, first result was a suicide bombing in Kandahar. Methinks googles UK weighting is a little skewed. What happens when you google it in the US?

This

[The Seldom Killer]

OK, found that now. There's not been any coverage of that over in the UK but due to less relevance over here we really don't hear about US school shootings anymore. Pretty tragic but really not worth suspending use of the word suicide for. After all, suicide bombings are almost a daily occurence in the current middle-east war zones with far graver consequences and they don't stop us going about our business.

[The Seldom Killer]

Most of them don't take others with them, though. and there are not 365,000+ suicides every year. Try tens of people.

The World Health Organisation estimate that 1,000,000 die from suicide every year.

That's a tad more than 365,000.

[Odin]

Googled Omaha suicide, first result was a suicide bombing in Kandahar. Methinks googles UK weighting is a little skewed. What happens when you google it in the US?

First result is a story about some kid in Omaha murdering the principal and vice principal of his school before committing suicide, sub-controversy about how he posted on Facebook saying he was going to do it and nobody reported it to authorities.

Most of them don't take others with them, though. and there are not 365,000+ suicides every year. Try tens of people.

Actually, there is an average of 3,000 people committing suicide every day world wide (source).

As for Veronica, no her actions do not make sense because she can ask him. I have no sympathy for mistakes made due to assumptions.

So you're saying she never asked him why Dora dumped him during the phone call, eh?

[westrim]

Most of them don't take others with them, though. and there are not 365,000+ suicides every year. Try tens of people.

The World Health Organization estimate that 1,000,000 die from suicide every year.
That's a tad more than 365,000.

The world is a tad more than the Unites States, which is what I thought we were talking about (that is, American current events.) We have about 90 a day, or 'tens'. Still adds up to 33,000 and change over the course of a year, though.

First result is a story about some kid in Omaha murdering the principal and vice principal of his school before committing suicide, sub-controversy about how he posted on Facebook saying he was going to do it and nobody reported it to authorities.

Actually, there is an average of 3,000 people committing suicide every day world wide (source).

Excellent job repeating what others have already provided. There's a reason that red text about posts since you started typing happens.

So you're saying she never asked him why Dora dumped him during the phone call, eh?

No I'm not. That would fall under "asking him", so unless he was extraordinarily unclear or only said "she dumped me", she would already know it was her issues that ended it. Or, she didn't ask him. Or someone is going to do a Phoenix Wright and object on the grounds of people rarely communicating effectively, to which I say that's why she asks who ended it and why before sneaking around behind his back based on old assumptions.

But I don't think that's how things went down. I don't know how much she knows about what happened, Jeph didn't tell us. So we'll see.

[jedraft]

Jesus, how many cringes does it take to get to the center of a Marten-Pop?

I can't take this lady anymore.  She needs to be hit by a bus, so Marten can collect insurance money to pay for his lifetime of therapy.  And here I thought at last he'd grown a pair by finally dumping Dora, (who also needs to get hit by a bus, or have some kind of Road To Damascus moment that turns her around 180 degrees.)  No, he's still playing sub to every woman he meets, and Mommy Dearest is a complete HORROR, here. 

And is happy about it.

And all the other girls are happy-happy giggle-giggle at watching the poor young man being TORTURED.   That is the word, actually.  It is literal emotional abuse. 

Not even Faye gives him ANY slack, didja notice?   All the women seem to get huggies and understanding when being completely outrageous, but a falling-down-DRUNK and obviously impotent and harmless Marten gets DECKED for making a stupid self-loathing pass at her.

You know why Veronica went to offer solidarity with Dora?

They're TWO OF A KIND!!!!

[Bologna]

And here I thought at last he'd grown a pair by finally dumping Dora

Er, Dora dumped him.  Why would you think he grew a pair?

[iduguphergrave]

I agree; this is starting to aggravate me. I'm starting to really dislike Ms. Reed and I can't take much more of Marten being pissed on so mercilessly.

I like how she just calls him that even though it's not his real middle name. I can just see their house growing up:

Mrs. Reed: Marten Tiberius Reed!

Mr. Reed: Dammit, Veronica, use his REAL middle name!

[The Seldom Killer]

I bet it's Timothy, or Nigel or something equally boring.

[Theron]

Marten needs to grow a spine.  Today's comic sent me over the line to outright distaste for the current storyline.

[Odin]

The world is a tad more than the Unites States, which is what I thought we were talking about (that is, American current events.) We have about 90 a day, or 'tens'. Still adds up to 33,000 and change over the course of a year, though.

The guy that brought up the murder/suicide in Omaha was talking about American events, the rest of us are pointing out that there is more than America in the world and you really might as well drop this entire argument because stuff like this:

Excellent job repeating what others have already provided. There's a reason that red text about posts since you started typing happens.

Just makes you look like a gigantic crybaby about being proven wrong about something. There is a reason there are time-stamps on posts and it is perfectly permissible for someone to post the same argument if they're providing different sources in their posts for the same conclusion and are within a few minutes of each other (I provided an actual linked source in addition to the argument, where the other posts simply stated their argument).

EDIT: Basically, you're being a huge hypocrite by saying that I'm not contributing anything to the discussion when you're doing exactly the same thing in the very post where you make the criticism.

[Dr. ROFLPWN]

Jesus, how many cringes does it take to get to the center of a Marten-Pop?

I can't take this lady anymore.  She needs to be hit by a bus, so Marten can collect insurance money to pay for his lifetime of therapy.  And here I thought at last he'd grown a pair by finally dumping Dora, (who also needs to get hit by a bus, or have some kind of Road To Damascus moment that turns her around 180 degrees.)  No, he's still playing sub to every woman he meets, and Mommy Dearest is a complete HORROR, here.  

And is happy about it.

And all the other girls are happy-happy giggle-giggle at watching the poor young man being TORTURED.   That is the word, actually.  It is literal emotional abuse.  

Not even Faye gives him ANY slack, didja notice?   All the women seem to get huggies and understanding when being completely outrageous, but a falling-down-DRUNK and obviously impotent and harmless Marten gets DECKED for making a stupid self-loathing pass at her.

You know why Veronica went to offer solidarity with Dora?

They're TWO OF A KIND!!!!

Oh look, here is a crystal clear example of the sort of hyperbole I was talking about! Yay. The bar has been set.  

Pika_power: I think the problem there is that it's a very different animal, comforting your emotionally prickly, sullen son while allowing him his space as a fellow adult from telling his ex you're not going to hunt her down and that you think she's not a Huge Bitch BLUH BLUH. She's kind of trying to play it by ear, and Marten isn't making it easy for her.

As an adult, it's his responsibility to say things like "No, mom, I can't handle lunch yet," or "I need a hug, mom, I'm not okay", and while I continue to think the whole embarrassment parade is harmless fun myself, (especially the Sven thing! All she saw was a chance to reenact The Graduate, she didn't know that was Dora's bro) even if you don't think so you must note he has put up all the resistance of a wet paper bag with snarky horseshit written on it. While we know that Mom clearly has authority still,  and seems to wield it bluntly, it's not on her to know exactly what the boy is thinking or doing or wants.

I do think maybe Faye should've come to dinner. She might've kept things calmer all round, ironically.
 
Westrim: It's true, this is a hard time for Marten, but we aren't Marten! It's good to empathize, to a degree, but one must also recall that this is a silly slice of life comic that is generally pretty relentlessly lighthearted, and sometimes Marten will be trod on by Jeph for the sake of our laughter, and he'll bounce back from that like nothing even happened! Not every little thing in
QC is a piece of some greater whole, nor is every slight on our beleaguered boy a contribution to his mental breakdown.

Hodges: *bows* You are wiser and more patient than I, and I think that indulgence is necessary: as you say, our contributors are of many walks and stripes. I think, up until this last post, the dialogue (on the comic anyhow) was going rather well.

[pwhodges]

While the discussion remains short of being offensive, I feel that there are sufficient people giving a measured view of the story's development to counteract some extreme views.  I wouldn't like to wave a stick at people's merely extreme views - unless their way of expressing them gets out of hand.

I do feel sad, though, for people whose response to so much is "grow a pair", as if testosterone were the only way to resolve any man's issues.

[rje]

Marten needs to grow a mustache.

Burt Reynolds style bby

edit: I should probably actually discuss instead of interject my unwitty retorts  

I partly agree with the good Dr, I think Jeph's first want is to make with the funny, and I'm not sure much of Veronica and Marten's interactions are supposed to point to any particular Thing. This last comic though, maybe. His reaction - cringing up like a little kid - bothered me. I hope one of the other two pulls him to the side to point out how that appeared, and he can talk to his mom about it.

But it made me realize that I had a pre-set anticipation of his mom Fixing Everything - being like super intuitive and a Super Mom and just super all around, and y'know what? Maybe she's not. Parents aren't infallible, and maybe she's not actually that good at reading the situation, or her son's emotions or needs, and she doesn't actually know what she's doing. She hasn't lived near her son for awhile, so perhaps she's still seeing him like she used to, before he moved away. Parental blinders. She doesn't really know Adult Marten like she should.

Whether or not this Means Anything or gets commented upon or resolved is still to be seen of course.

[Murphoid]

OMG, What did Martens Mom do to him?  I can't imagine anyone being so incredibly passive to respond to barked orders from their Mom like that as an adult.  Could you imagine if your mom ordered you to apologize in front of your friends like that as an adult.

I mean yes be nice to your mom, but a "Mom, could we discuss this in private please?" would be the least response I would expect from an adult.  Marten is far more beaten down than I ever expected.  I have lost a whole lot of respect for Mrs. Reed.  She is off my favorite characters list.

Nice lil joke about Tiberius tho.  My eldest son is named James.  That is because my wife VETOed Luke.

[Merrick]

Basically, I have grown an intense dislike for Marten's mother over the last couple of weeks, climaxing with this.

What a whore.

[pwhodges]

I don't think you mean "whore", in any sense of the word I know.

Marten needs to grow a mustache.

Marten's moustache.

[rje]

I don't think you mean "whore", in any sense of the word I know.

Marten needs to grow a mustache.

Marten's moustache.

That is not like Burt Reynolds at all. >:I

[TheEvilDog]

By his own admission, Marten is unable to grow anything more than a creepy Maths teacher's moustache. And honestly, if he could he'd look more like Tom Selleck than Burt Reynolds (and this is old Tom Selleck).

Back to the comic, Veronica is playing a very dangerous game and is likely to seriously damage her relationship with Marten. Yes, you should never talk to either of your parents like that, but at the same time there are certain limitations to how a parent should treat their own children. I mean, Marten has done alright for himself, travelling across the country to a city where he had quite possibly only one friend, no job and not a lot of money, to having a nice place, a (usually) decent group of friends, a job which keeps him clothed and food on the table, he is a man and fully capable of taking care of himself.

Thats what she should be seeing, unfortunately, instead it's Marten in his dinosaur Halloween costume and until she can see past that, all Veronica is going to do is more harm than good, and she'll push Marten away.

[cuzsis]

(raises hand slightly)

Point of order?

Uhm, can we stop with the suicide references for a while?

After what happened in Omaha?

...Please?

No? Thousands of people commit suicide every single day (not to mention the atrocities that happen in Darfur), so stop being so sensitive. This is the Internet, grow thicker skin. I can guarantee you that somewhere else on the Internet someone is making a "tribute" video to the news footage of what happened in Omaha set to Benny Hill music.

As for the comic, I'm thinking Veronica is acting the way she is because she's operating on the assumption that Dora dumped Marten because of something stupid Marten did and not because of how things actually went down because she doesn't know how things actually went down.

She's thinking Dora dumped Marten based on a (correct) view of Marten's past behavior in relationships and doesn't know or realize Dora's own insecurities and the role they played this time. In this light, her actions towards Marten actually make some sense.

 I'm glad you posted this bit.

 B/c frankly, while each individual strip can be taken by itself to be amusing/light hearted ect... the whole over arcing storyline has become completely confusing in terms of character development for me. Characters are doing stuff that doesn't make sense based on our knowledge of them and their relationships.

 Sure, a lot of it is funny and unexpected in terms of individual installments, but when you put them together it's one big, WTF?!  

[Murphoid]

I mean, Marten has done alright for himself, travelling across the country to a city where he had quite possibly only one friend, no job and not a lot of money, to having a nice place, a (usually) decent group of friends, a job which keeps him clothed and food on the table, he is a man and fully capable of taking care of himself.

Honestly, I can't make myself believe that someone working in a college library makes enough to live on.  He might get an allowance from his mom, but still this kind of thing from Mrs. Reed is bang out of order.

[Murphoid]

Sure, a lot of it is funny and unexpected in terms of individual installments, but when you put them together it's one big, WTF?!  

But that happens in real life too sometimes.  People sometimes act different than you'd expect.  Sometimes all at the same time.

[Odin]

I wonder why Hanners has stayed mostly silent throughout all this? She's usually much quicker to point out bullshit.

She's probably still hung up on wondering what Marten told his mom about her, thus not very likely to get angry at whatever unjust shit Marten gets from his mom.

[Skewbrow]

That is not like Burt Reynolds at all. >:I

I'm afraid this may be the best he can do. Doesn't quite match the image you had in mind, does it? But don't you think Chaplin style would be more fitting for Marten? Dodges an upper-cut delivered by the local fashion police.

[thomshouse]

Given the way his mom's treated him this whole visit, yeah, it's no wonder Marten gets crapped on and takes it so much.

In my opinion, the most interesting thing is what we don't see here: Faye.  I don't think Tai or Hannelore would either one be willing to call Veronica out on her treatment of Marten...  And through no fault of their own. I think most people let family squabbles remain family squabbles, y'know, short of physical abuse and what not.

But I believe Faye would be so willing.  And I wouldn't be surprised next week if we see Marten slump in the door, lets out a demoralized moan about his mom, and we do get to see, as the poll puts it: FAYE RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!

[Swedish Chef]

And my new year's resolve was to keep on lurking.

Here is my input on Jeph' masterful writing.

Re : Veronica/Marten.

I think some people are reading too much into V's reaction in the last comic. She raised Marten on her own since the divorce when he was 10, she may states to others that he's a grown up but, in her eyes, he'll never be anything else than the memory of a better time, than a young child depending on her guidance; hence a reason she brought the picture book in the first place. One can be 20, one can be 40, one can be 60, your mother will never see you a day older than 7. A side reaction here is the human emotion not to be remembered one gets older. Admitting that Marten has any reason to talk back means admitting Veronica is getting old herself.

As to where the storyline goes, everybody cannot but notice how unhealthy the trend is. Who's at fault here doesn't matter much. Dora has to face her own demons, which is always better than facing Faye's angry murloc face. Veronica, by her line of work alone, has more than enough experience in gauging other' emotion but this week proves that she cannot read her own son, a very upsetting thing to realize. Marten is under tremendous pressure, with no relief in sight if Pintsize can help it. How he'll react is up to Jeph, worst case scenario is ending one's life...or joining the Foreign Legion.

The one shining ray of hope  this whole week was Hanner. Look at her face when she looks at Marten, she may be the one who will offer help/shoulder/whatsnot that will make him go through the whole ordeal.



In the meanwhile...well, back to lurking.

[tomart]

"NO! YOU apologize! You're goddamn right I'm in a bad mood, and you DON'T get to hold being my mother over me like some fucking get-out-of-being-decent card!  I feel like shit right now, and the last thing I needed was you coming here making things WORSE...!

 ...it sure would be nice if Veronica actually got called on being pretty shitty to him ever since she arrived. Rants aside, I truly don't believe that being a parent gives someone the right to do pretty much anything she's done since she arrived...

...when a character's acting badly people are going to comment on it...

It's gotten beyond uncomfortable, rude, insensitive, & harmful, to rediculous.  I hope Jeph has some good rationale or fallout for Veronica's Marten-abuse, but I can't imagine what it could be.

Maybe he's making more/stronger points about how women abuse men (and other women go along with it) which I do think need to be made, but jeez...

[Kugai]

Now all he needs is a Starship.


She really is beginning to piss me off now.  I don't know what her game is, or whether she's just disconnected in regards to Marten's feelings, but I swear to got someone needs to deck this woman before she leaves.

I hope it's Faye.

[tomart]

I mean, a lot of the time things are being used for humor, and are entirely artifice. I have a feeling much of Veronica's embarrassing behavior was supposed to be taken in a lighthearted, funny manner...

If mom's obliviousness to his feelings and all these Marten-embarrassments were supposed to be amusing & lighthearted, then why does one little (JUSTIFIED!) snark by him, justify SERIOUS PUNISHMENT and even MORE embarrassment in front of his friends??  

Double Standard!

[Odin]

Now all he needs is a Starship.


She really is beginning to piss me off now.  I don't know what her game is, or whether she's just disconnected in regards to Marten's feelings, but I swear to got someone needs to deck this woman before she leaves.

I hope it's Faye.

Please, nobody is going to attack a professional dominatrix. They'd be too afraid to go to sleep again if they didn't kill her!

[GeoffTheLlama]

Back to the comic, Veronica is playing a very dangerous game and is likely to seriously damage her relationship with Marten. Yes, you should never talk to either of your parents like that, but at the same time there are certain limitations to how a parent should treat their own children. I mean, Marten has done alright for himself, travelling across the country to a city where he had quite possibly only one friend, no job and not a lot of money, to having a nice place, a (usually) decent group of friends, a job which keeps him clothed and food on the table, he is a man and fully capable of taking care of himself.

While I suspect this is just Veronica being Veronica and even if it does push Marten to HULK OUT at some point he won't actually, you know, shun his mom (I mean, she's MOM), I agree with about every other point you've made thus far.

At first I thought this was just going to be a short-lived, "oh, even dominatrixes can be embarrassing overbearing mothers!" gag, but now it's just gotten uncomfortable.   While I wouldn't call it abuse by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I suspect that Veronica was ever abusive toward her son), it is pretty insensitive.  

I'm curious where this is going now.  I'd actually kind of like to see Hanners play Hannersmom with Marten's mom and give her a bit of a 'hey, really? wanna stop that now?' kind of talk, only because I think Faye is still intimidated by her (and I'd honestly just like to see some more Hanners development because she's a really well-written and developed character).

[MamiyaOtaru]

I was actually glad to see him get a little discipline.  His whining was getting on my nerves.

ohwait  evil parents!  keeping us down!

[Pika_power]

Pika_power: I think the problem there is that it's a very different animal, comforting your emotionally prickly, sullen son while allowing him his space as a fellow adult from telling his ex you're not going to hunt her down and that you think she's not a Huge Bitch BLUH BLUH. She's kind of trying to play it by ear, and Marten isn't making it easy for her.

As an adult, it's his responsibility to say things like "No, mom, I can't handle lunch yet," or "I need a hug, mom, I'm not okay", and while I continue to think the whole embarrassment parade is harmless fun myself, (especially the Sven thing! All she saw was a chance to reenact The Graduate, she didn't know that was Dora's bro) even if you don't think so you must note he has put up all the resistance of a wet paper bag with snarky horseshit written on it. While we know that Mom clearly has authority still,  and seems to wield it bluntly, it's not on her to know exactly what the boy is thinking or doing or wants.

I do think maybe Faye should've come to dinner. She might've kept things calmer all round, ironically.

Show me one strip in the recent arc which includes her "allowing him space as a fellow adult". No, the nap doesn't count, as she just wanted him out of the way so she could show baby photos.

Veronica knows perfectly well what she's doing goes against Marten's wishes, and she doesn't care. Even if I give her the benefit of the doubt, and assume that she's just too stupid to pick up on the social cues of "Mom. Mom! MOM. MOM.", and the thought doesn't cross her mind that trying to pick up her son's ex's brother less than a week after the breakup might be a tad uncomfortable for Marten, nor does him walking away in disgust make her realise, when even Tai and Hanners have, there's still clear evidence of her disregarding Marten's feelings. When he does explain to her that what she's doing is making him uncomfortable, she brushes it off as his being "uptight". She did the same at the restaurant. You can argue about her wanting to make sure Dora's okay all you like; lying to her son to skip out on him in the middle of dinner to comfort his ex not only demonstrates blatant ignorance for Marten's emotions, it shows that she knows what she's doing doesn't meet her son's approval (or else she'd have told him), but does it anyway, and when caught, she doesn't admit to her fault.

There's tough love, then there's having no respect for boundaries set by someone close to you. She has passed the point where the 'tough love' defence stands up, and it's gotten to the stage where the half-hearted protests of 'Veronca Vance works in mysterious ways" don't cut the mustard. At best, for most of the incidences you can argue that she's socially defunct, but for other cases, where we know that she knows that she's going against Marten's wishes (such as waiting for him to leave before showing baby pictures) we can see that she flat-out doesn't care what Marten's opinion is.

Hell, I wouldn't put it past her to do something like looking up porn on his computer, even if he specifically asked her not to. Take from that what you will.

[TheEvilDog]

Honestly, I can't make myself believe that someone working in a college library makes enough to live on.  He might get an allowance from his mom, but still this kind of thing from Mrs. Reed is bang out of order.

The average college trained librarian earns about $50000 a year, so I'm guessing Marten earns about half of that (That probably includes the 30% increase he got when he and Dora walked in on the committee members in the copy room). Assuming Marten and Faye split the rent 50/50, he can probably just about get by if he doesn't buy many extragences (If I remember correctly, the last major thing he bought was the guitar with the bet he made with Beatrice). I mean, we never see him having any problem paying rent or buying food, or at least to the degree where he has to go to his parents for a handout.

[Heliphyneau]

I'd actually kind of like to see Hanners play Hannersmom with Marten's mom and give her a bit of a 'hey, really? wanna stop that now?' kind of talk

I'm hoping to see more of that 'innocent outsider observation' Hanners can do so well -- remember when Marten and Steve are bitching about women and she calmly points out that what they're doing is not constructive?  (Sorry, I have no link-fu.)  I could see her making a clear-headed statement about both Marten and his Mom that would cut through the bullshit of both their actions.

I was actually glad to see him get a little discipline.  His whining was getting on my nerves.

Ms. Reed's reaction to his whining/snark is pretty understandable, yeah.  Lacking in empathy, but understandable.  His behavior may have been reminding her of his teen years.  Both of them could stand to be a bit better at communicating.

Veronica knows perfectly well what she's doing goes against Marten's wishes, and she doesn't care.

I tend to think it's more that she's never really paid much attention to whether she's crossing Marten's boundaries.  She's not stupid, but she's not being deliberately malicious -- she just doesn't really understand why he has boundaries and hang-ups that she does not.  She's a person; people are flawed.  For example, she sought to avoid upsetting him by being duplicitous and talking to Dora behind his back, which was not a good idea.  And Marten is snarking at her instead of directly telling her how he feels and what he wants, which was also not a good idea (though he has told her some things he doesn't want, ie: for his Mom to pick up a waitress for him).  We're getting a glimpse of how their mother-son relationship works and doesn't work, and I'm sure we'll see more next week.

Sidenote:  I thought Faye was working at CoD and that's where she was when Hanners called her to come see baby pictures of Marten, but we didn't see her at CoD when Ms. Reed went there -- we only saw Penelope and Dora.  It's possible Faye was there but unseen, but I am now wondering where she is.  Hmm, maybe she left work early and is at the apartment making waffles . . .

[AnAverageWriter]

I tend to think it's more that she's never really paid much attention to whether she's crossing Marten's boundaries.

From what I've seen, hardly anyone in this strip actually seems to respect Martin's boundaries. They cross all sorts of lines, all the while expecting Martin to behave like a Boy Scout, even while drunk. And Martin puts up with it!

This latest arc really has him channeling Charlie Brown. I half expect him to start saying "good grief" with every new betrayal.

[Boomslang]

Since, by definition, nothing Marten does in the comic can be considered out of character, I'm having to re-examine how I look at Marten in light of what's happening.

And, really, I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

To really enjoy this comic, I have to have some sort of sympathy for the main characters, at least a little respect for who they are. Marten is being redefined in the current arc as someone I don't wish to spend time watching, in contrast with how he's been the rest of comic. I can understand that it might be for laughs, but... I don't find the punchlines funny. And even if it was, I don't think the debasement of Marten as a character would be worth it anyway. Hopefully things will change, but if next week is more of the same, I might stop reading.

[jwhouk]

Hey, don't knock it. Chuck Schulz had that gig down for nearly 50 years. I think Jeph would be happy for half that.

[AnAverageWriter]

I liked "Peanuts" but...

If longevity were quality then the "Family Circus" would be considered the finest strip on the planet.

[Armadillo]

God, this arc has become downright PAINFUL to read.  I can't directly empathize with Marten, because my Mom's nothing like Ms. Reed, but holy crap this woobie/chew toy thing the rest of the cast has with Marten has gone far enough.

By my count, he's gotten exactly one hug since this all went down, from Tai of all people, and even that ended with a nipple joke (which I found very funny, for what it's worth.)  Dora's gotten TWO hugs, one each from Marten's best friend who punched him out in a vulnerable state, and his MOM, who's been metaphorically stomping on his balls since she got there, almost with glee.

And now this.  He gets completely dressed down in front of his peers for daring to speak up in his own defense.  Par for the course, I suppose: Tai did call him a prick for a similar offense a few weeks back.  It's gone beyond simple laughs at the expense of a character; it's gotten to the point where I don't think anyone in this universe actually RESPECTS Marten.  When someone looks around and realizes that he's not respected and is for all intents and purposes a plaything, bad times are ahead.

[Cie]

Meh, for all the 'VERONICA IS TEH EBULZS' and 'MARTEN IS A WHINY EMO DOORMAT', this situation is eerily simillar to a phase myself and a few of my friends are heading through.



My mother is a strong female - she's blunt, irrational and assuming at her very worst, but she's got a lot of good in her too. I'm a few months off being a legal adult, so I'm still living with my parents - I've 'outgrown' the nest for a good year or so now, so my mother and I am often stepping on each others toes.

My parents outweigh me far more in terms of life experience, but we're equals now in that we're all rational human beings and we can all pretty much reason for ourselves. The thing is, my mother particularly hasn't got out of the parent-child mindset yet, and she hasn't particularly got out of the mindset of hierarchy. In that, she can instruct me to do things which she would like me to do, but logically there's not much wrong with doing (we spent a month arguing over birth control because I wanted to have sex with my boyfriend for the first time, at the age of seventeen, in a very committed relationship, after serious consideration, research into different methods of birth control, and even an STI test on my boyfriend's end, but still deliberated for a while because she preferred me to abstain for a few years. I guess this probably appears biased, but it's the best example I have).

What she was particularly guilty of, is that if she had a problem with me, I was expected to apologise instantly. If I called her out though for being unfair at any point, she wouldn't discuss it with me, in response she'd just simply get enraged, or call me out as being silly. I recall ranting to her for five minutes about all the problems I had with her - yes, I did so immaturely, and I fully admit to being an ass about it, I was snappy with it. But she responded getting angry for two hours and breaking my lamp.




This sorta reminds me of Marten. He called her out earlier for trying to hook him up with the waitress, she brushed him off as petty and 'uptight'. Sure, a lot of her actions were good teasing fun, but they got excessive in number and she was being overbearing. The moment Marten snaps though, Veronica gets upset immediately simply because he was angry at her. I think that's a little hypocritical, and it reminds me a lot of my own experiences for that reason. Veronica in some ways still sees Marten as a kid, and doesn't really treat him with the respect an adult deserves.

But I think what's sort of alarming is how Marten automatically goes into apology mode. It's almost robotic. Marten's not a complete doormat - he's got enough balls to throw out a bitter comment in the first place to his own mother, and he's showed some of his nerve with what happened with Dora. But it's almost as if all his recent achievements in 'standing his ground' have sort of evaporated. It's almost unnatural.



I kinda wonder actually if Veronica and Marten have had problems in the past - especially with this development. It seems like at times she treats him a little like an accessory to tease for her own enjoyment, and whilst she knows it, she can forget that he's her own son. Similarly with the apologising -  wonder when Veronica disciplined, she took in any account of what Marten was like as a kid and a person? V's not a complete apathetic bitch to his feelings, and she's not amoral, but she can get carried away, and she can sometimes be a little short-sighted.

Marten's also not completely innocent either. Instead of confronting her over this about her feelings, openly, like an adult, the only way he can express his irritation is through expressions and snide comments. In a sort of 'hoping she'll get the hint' way - like an exasperated teenager. It's almost if Marten ran away from that confrontational stage at all, and never really could rebel properly - he's stuck as a teenager around her until he can get out of the mud. 

Wow. Mommy issues, much.

[Murphoid]

Honestly, I can't make myself believe that someone working in a college library makes enough to live on.  He might get an allowance from his mom, but still this kind of thing from Mrs. Reed is bang out of order.

The average college trained librarian earns about $50000 a year, so I'm guessing Marten earns about half of that (That probably includes the 30% increase he got when he and Dora walked in on the committee members in the copy room). Assuming Marten and Faye split the rent 50/50, he can probably just about get by if he doesn't buy many extragences (If I remember correctly, the last major thing he bought was the guitar with the bet he made with Beatrice). I mean, we never see him having any problem paying rent or buying food, or at least to the degree where he has to go to his parents for a handout.

I think that 25K a year would be about right, If it is a full time job.  Marten does have a college degree but it is not in library science.  I see him more as just a page, shelving books and running the front desk.  He is not a manager and his previous work experience as Office Bitch hardly would qualify him to start making the big bucks, would it?

How would he get so lucky to get a full time job with a college with no library degree?  Meh.  Prolly just thinking too hard about it.

Although the bribes he is getting off the two professors he caught making the two backed monster might kick out some I guess.  About the only time I remember him talking about money at all was when he was trying to stop himself from impulse buying an IPOD which he ended up buying anyway.  Poor impulse control does lead to financial woes.

Anyway, it's a cartoon.  Having people discussing 401k's and paychecks would bot be very funny.