Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Assumptions and Homophobia
Akima:
--- Quote from: Armadillo on 25 Feb 2011, 12:09 ---This isn't meant to say that feelings of offense are invalid or wrong, just that you and YOU ALONE are responsible for your actions and feelings.
--- End quote ---
I fully accept that I am responsible for my actions and feelings. But the corollary of that is that every other adult is fully and solely responsible for their words and actions. Recognising offensive words and actions and responding to them is one way one holds others accountable for their actions. To suggest that some people are entitled to be treated more indulgently than others is to divide the world into aristocrats and serfs. You know, just like real life...
--- Quote from: Carl-E on 25 Feb 2011, 14:27 ---Homophobia (and racism, and sexism, and...) has to be in the eye of the beholder. Because if the perpetrator (and I do not use that term lightly) could see it, then they wouldn't use it.
--- End quote ---
That is a hugely generous assessment, Carl. Many people are neither ignorant nor ashamed of their bigotry. Instead they feel fully entitled to see people of different race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. as second-class citizens, or indeed as not really human at all. Sure they don't like it when they're called out on it, and people label them "racist", "sexist", "homophobe" etc. but that's just ducking responsibility.
Skelepunk:
--- Quote from: muffin_of_chaos on 24 Feb 2011, 18:12 ---I personally don't like people assuming things about me. While I feel more strongly negative about them assuming false things about me, any assumption made will be either far too simplistic to be relevant to anything or completely out of context.
Anyway, the error Padma made was the automatic nature of the assumption, not the fact that the assumption had to do with homosexuality. I would think slightly less of her (i.e. lower my opinion of her ability to make and follow through with good choices) for the assumption, because she was speaking and acting based on an unconfirmed assumption, except that she seems merely dense. The kind of dense with the capacity to learn from mistakes, which is almost better than...non-dense.
--- End quote ---
Everyone judges, and everyone assumes. We take our basic ideas about people's attributes and apply other characteristics to that person, based on what we think about those attributes. We rarely have good reasons for these assumptions, since many are imprinted at a young age, and if not altered during adolescence generally remain, but there they are. We all do what Padma did, even if it is subconscious. It's a way to categorize others, and it's pretty well instinctive. As for the acting on unconfirmed assumptions, most people filter others' behaviour through their assumptions, and so it becomes confirmed to them, and so they treat the other person like their assumption is true. It's a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
That's not to say that we shouldn't monitor these assumptions, and try to correct them when they are found to be wrong. Trying to be open minded and fair about things is very important. There are whole theories dedicated to trying to remove prejudice and discrimination.
Carl-E:
--- Quote from: Akima on 25 Feb 2011, 15:59 ---
--- Quote from: Carl-E on 25 Feb 2011, 14:27 ---Homophobia (and racism, and sexism, and...) has to be in the eye of the beholder. Because if the perpetrator (and I do not use that term lightly) could see it, then they wouldn't use it.
--- End quote ---
That is a hugely generous assessment, Carl. Many people are neither ignorant nor ashamed of their bigotry. Instead they feel fully entitled to see people of different race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. as second-class citizens, or indeed as not really human at all. Sure they don't like it when they're called out on it, and people label them "racist", "sexist", "homophobe" etc. but that's just ducking responsibility.
--- End quote ---
I suppose it is generous, but maybe I need to explain where it came from a little better. People who genuinely hold such opinions really do see these "other" people as second (or even lower) class people, and that was my point. By doing so, they've removed the responsibility of empathy, and are free to treat these "others" as less than themselves, and maybe even less than human.
When I said "...if the perpetrator could see it, then they wouldn't use it", I meant to imply that they don't see it, that they need to have their eyes opened to the fact that these "others" are on par with themselves, equally human, and deserving of equal treatment. They need to obtain empathy for the "others" in some way. And I also mentioned later in the post that it will probably never happen.
A person with these opinions and beleifs will readily acknowledge them, even flaunt them, since they beleive they are correct. There needs to be some education, as skelpunk intimated in his (her?) post. damn gendered pronouns...
So I don't think I was being overly generous, just pointing out a dismal fact. Maybe it was your prejudicial opinion that I'm just a nice person that made you see it as so generous! :angel:
Blackjoker:
I suppose I am going a bit off topic with this but it might offer a, theoretically anyway, less charged comparison for the question of assumptions and reactions in the context of homophobia. I was a Christian until a couple of years ago, I am an atheist now, I have had people assume that I was a Christian either because of work that I did or because a lot of people tend to be christian they just sort of took it as the default. Does it bother me to be assumed as a christian...sort of but it doesn't annoy me as much because I also know I used to be one. I have known some of my friends who are christian who get irritated if they get mistaken for atheists, conservatives, liberals, whatever because of their branch of faith or something similar. In one case I had a friend finally snap angrily "Yes, I am a christian, yes I am pro choice, quit assuming that I am anti-womens rights as it is REALLY irritating."
Is it the same as someone assuming you're gay, not exactly but I think it does show that some people get irritated by being assumed to be something they aren't. I was at a party, struck up a conversation with a woman that interested me, asked her out, and she rather angrily told me that she was a lesbian and asked why I would assume she was straight. I have had people assume I was gay, and I have had them try to attack me for it so yeah, I do react a little bit more...negatively shall we say. Does a person who is offended by being assumed gay have to be branded homophobic? I think it's based on the reasons why they feel that way. After all, I don't assume that people who are offended at being thought atheists, liberals, conservatives, etc. have a phobia of those things, they are merely irritated at being prejudged.
That's my take, and I probably garbled a few things anyhow and made an irrelevant comparison, but meh.
cabbagehut:
Well, thanks, Carl-E! I have a tendency to ramble and lose my focus, so I worry that I'm not quite making sense, or that I'm using the wrong words or something.
Blackjoker, I'm sorry if it seemed I was linking Christianity to homophobia. They're linked in my friend, but not for all people! Actually, when we talked about how I felt about her homophobia, she asked me, puzzled, "But you knew when you met me I was a Christian. What did you expect?", and I told her that there are many kinds of Christians, so one never knows. When she said she was a Christian, I assumed she probably believed in a God and a Jesus, but you can't know a whole lot beyond that.
--- Quote from: Blackjoker on 25 Feb 2011, 19:55 ---Does a person who is offended by being assumed gay have to be branded homophobic? I think it's based on the reasons why they feel that way.
--- End quote ---
I think that's what a lot of us have been trying to get at. If you're irritated at being assumed to be gay because it happens ALL THE TIME and you're tired of correcting people (like a poster mentioned earlier), no, that's not homophobic. If you're irritated because eew, gays are gross, you'd like to not be associated with that, or it threatens your masculinity, yeah, that's homophobic.
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