Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 28 Feb-4 Mar 2011 (1871-1875)
Odin:
--- Quote from: westrim on 28 Feb 2011, 14:28 ---I feel it's important to note that we have not yet actually discussed female genitalia, just secondary sex characteristics.
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It would be a package deal, though, since men don't really have an analogous body part to a woman's breasts as far as discussions of sexy body parts go. If you're talking about women's breasts in a sexual context it is pretty pedantic (read: stupid) to say that they're not technically genitalia as if that makes it okay to go on and on about them in a way that makes other people uncomfortable.
It would've been funny if one of you nerds had come along making "bags of sand" references or something (40 year old Virgin, among other movies), but this whole discussion quickly got sad.
westrim:
--- Quote from: tughluq on 28 Feb 2011, 14:39 ---Yeah, I'm generally okay with my body, but it's just like "oh. right. cultural beauty standards again" sometimes. You know? My breasts are fairly 'medium' sized and I still feel that pressure that comes from the idea that women's bodies can *always be improved.* Gross.
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Replace 'women's' and with 'everyone's' yes, that is exactly true. Everyone's bodies can be improved in some way, shape or form. Perfection is an unattainable goal. Everyone will have some way that their bodies don't run at peak performance or have structural issues or plumbing (yes, I'm comparing us to buildings). As soon as we're old enough to control our functions they start breaking down. Like I said below, what matters is what importance we attach to those flaws, but deciding that they don't matter (which I agree wholeheartedly with) won't change that they are still flaws. It's fine not to give a damn about saggy parts or veins, but that's still connective tissues breaking down and possible blood flow or skin tone problems. As for breasts, so far as I know small and medium are better in terms of health, for reasons I'm sure you're aware of, and anything else is personal preference that has nothing to do with flaws.
--- Quote from: tughluq ---
--- Quote from: westrim on 28 Feb 2011, 14:28 ---So what, you believe that every body is perfect? Recognizing physical flaws doesn't make a body objectified, just recognized as being human. What importance we attach to those flaws and perhaps what we consider flaws may need changing, but yes, there are cons about your body and everyone else's. Dude's bodies too, we just don't confide our fears about it to other people as much as women do, again because of different measures of importance.
As for the comic, it in no way says that large breasts are better; that's what you are attaching to it. All it says is that they put Hannelore to sleep.
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Yeah, sorry, but my body doesn't have "flaws" or cons because it's my body. Any perceived "flaws" are just products of subjective cultural standards. Speaking about breasts as if they're not attached to a person - not part of a whole - is what is kind of objectifying; it's part of this idea that women's bodies can and should be improved in parts and pieces.
And there have been more than this one comic where breasts are the focus/punchline... it's easier to notice if you are a person who is subject to ~beauty~ standards re: that body part.
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As I said before, yes, every body is flawed; I don't know where the "my" comes in because I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about a universal human condition. And as I said before, whether or not we have flaws and whether or not we care about those flaws are two very different things. And talking about a single body part in isolation [opinion]does not automatically objectify it, what does so is dismissing the rest. Liking feet is not objectifying- judging someone solely by their feet is.[/opinion] I'm not sure how treating/improving a wart could possibly affect more than the area immediately adjacent to the wart- people can be improved in parts and pieces, whether it fits your worldview or not.
Analogy: Everyone is has some type of bad habit (flaw), most of which don't matter and can be ignored (caring about the flaw); say, fingernail biting. If that they bite their nails is the sole thing that a person perceives of them (objectification), that's bad or very limited. Helping them stop biting their nails doesn't somehow affect their knees (parts and pieces) nor is it bad to attempt fixing it. Viewing something that isn't a bad habit (flaw) as one, like, I dunno, eating left handed, is still a view (caring) problem; its flawedness isn't the issue, the perception is, and that may need your work. (I think that's where your point is, but you're expanding it unnecessarily with your claim that we don't have flaws, only perceptions of them.)
As for the comic, again, this strip only says that Faye's boobs put Hannelore to sleep. And that Angus likes them, I forgot that. That's it. It doesn't say why; anything else is your own projections. Yes, he's made jokes about breasts before, but as part of using cultural standards for humor, not bowing to them. Making note of a noticeable physical characteristic doesn't make the joke bad or demeaning, whether it's breasts or being skinny and physically unimposing .
TL;DR Everybody's body is flawed, how people view them is the concern; please don't confuse the two issues.
--- Quote from: jwhouk on 28 Feb 2011, 14:56 ---
--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 28 Feb 2011, 13:04 ---Deadlywonky, I don't know if it's premature, but I'm tempted to declare you a Master of the Archives.
--- End quote ---
HEY now.
(Points down at Strip-by-Strip list)
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So, you two can be Sith, master and apprentice.
--- Quote from: Odin on 28 Feb 2011, 16:39 ---
--- Quote from: westrim on 28 Feb 2011, 14:28 ---I feel it's important to note that we have not yet actually discussed female genitalia, just secondary sex characteristics.
--- End quote ---
It would be a package deal, though, since men don't really have an analogous body part to a woman's breasts as far as discussions of sexy body parts go. If you're talking about women's breasts in a sexual context it is pretty pedantic (read: stupid) to say that they're not technically genitalia as if that makes it okay to go on and on about them in a way that makes other people uncomfortable.
It would've been funny if one of you nerds had come along making "bags of sand" references or something (40 year old Virgin, among other movies), but this whole discussion quickly got sad.
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Penises and breasts are still not 1/1 comparisons, because they are not analogous structures. Saying 'if breasts, then penises' is an escalation no matter how you try to reason it out. They are still prominent physical characteristics of Faye that were directly involved in the strip's plot; I remember a couple pages of discussion when Marten's tackle was mentioned in a strip too (with that term, if I recall correctly).
My point is, I made that note because people were bringing up penises and escalating the discussion and I was trying to bring it back down.
Dangit, I promised myself I wouldn't do any more of these hourlong posts.
Armadillo:
I'll just say this: there have been occasions in this forum where the topic has drifted into territory I don't feel comfortable getting into, for whatever reason.
Whenever that happens, I don't participate in the conversation. Why ruin somebody else's good time because of my ookiness, when I haven't been personally referenced/attacked?
Is it cold in here?:
--- Quote from: jwhouk on 28 Feb 2011, 14:56 ---
--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 28 Feb 2011, 13:04 ---Deadlywonky, I don't know if it's premature, but I'm tempted to declare you a Master of the Archives.
--- End quote ---
HEY now.
(Points down at Strip-by-Strip list)
--- End quote ---
We could appoint you Grand Master of the Archives to distinguish you from mere Masters.
tughluq:
--- Quote from: westrim on 28 Feb 2011, 16:46 ---
As I said before, yes, every body is flawed; I don't know where the "my" comes in because I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about a universal human condition. And as I said before, whether or not we have flaws and whether or not we care about those flaws are two very different things. And talking about a single body part in isolation [opinion]does not automatically objectify it, what does so is dismissing the rest. Liking feet is not objectifying- judging someone solely by their feet is.[/opinion] I'm not sure how treating/improving a wart could possibly affect more than the area immediately adjacent to the wart- people can be improved in parts and pieces, whether it fits your worldview or not.
As for the comic, again, this strip only says that Faye's boobs put Hannelore to sleep. And that Angus likes them, I forgot that. That's it. It doesn't say why; anything else is your own projections. Yes, he's made jokes about breasts before, but as part of using cultural standards for humor, not bowing to them. Making note of a noticeable physical characteristic doesn't make the joke bad or demeaning, whether it's breasts or being skinny and physically unimposing .
TL;DR Everybody's body is flawed, how people view them is the concern; please don't confuse the two issues.
--- End quote ---
You are deluding yourself if you think men have the same level of pressure to live up to beauty standards as women. Women's bodies are made into separate pieces, objectified and held to standards in a way that those of men are not.
Everyone's body is flawed according to whom? There is no such thing as an objective appearance flaw; there are standards which are entirely cultural and subjective. My body only has "cons" according to arbitrary, ever changing standards; there is not actually anything wrong with my appearance - it has no "cons." (Your building comparison doesn't actually work because its using the idea of proper function - despite what evolutionary psychologists tell you, whether I live up to beauty standards has nothing to do with my body's function, i.e. doing everything it's supposed to do.) It's incredibly frustrating to be confronted with those standards in every realm of culture, including webcomics. The intent for humor doesn't negate that. <-- my original point, relevant to comic discussion :P
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