Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT

Firefly and/or Joss Whedon

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ayvah:

--- Quote from: cabbagehut on 04 Mar 2011, 00:26 ---I'll keep this short so I don't thread-jack, but the creators of the cartoon have specifically stated that the characters are intended to be Asian - you can see it in their world.  The whole thing is basically Asia and some Inuit-inspired characters.  At the very least, they could have cast darker-skinned actors for Katara and Sokka.  The very least.
--- End quote ---
That was actually the part that bothered me the most. I mean, they cast the vast majority of the water tribe with actors who seemed somewhat Inuit, but the main characters were not. It kind of undermines the whole argument about the TV show not being explicit about the characters' races when you've cast a particular race for every single member of the tribe except for the characters of consequence. *headdesk*

I guess we should just agree that that movie was a whitewashed trainwreck.


--- Quote from: tender on 04 Mar 2011, 03:46 ---
--- Quote from: ayvah on 03 Mar 2011, 21:39 ---The UN is also technically in charge.
--- End quote ---
Indeed.
--- End quote ---
If the point you're making is that the UN is a puppet of Seele (of which Gendo also happens to be a member), then yes. This is true.


--- Quote from: Akima on 04 Mar 2011, 00:58 ---Television casting decisions are not "accidental". They are made by professional people making choices about what they think is important to put on the screen. The makers of Firefly made choices that put Asian actors and Asian people in the background. I can see that on the screen, because that is what they put there. I don't need to imagine conspiracy or malign intent to think that is a problem. I assume that what the Firefly creative team put on the screen is what they intended, or at least what they thought was "good enough".

--- End quote ---
I think you're on a different page from what I've been trying to argue, and that may be a consequence of his use of the word "accidental". The casting choices themselves were certainly not accidental.

However, as I explained earlier, Whedon had worked with many of the actors before, and that history is somewhat accidental. Also, while you certainly can choose your actors, if the best actors who've auditioned for the role happen to be not Asian, then that's also something that's not under your control (as long as you've been inclusive up until that point, of course). In such a situation, you do have to consider whether your priority is to have the best actors or the Asian actors. Considering that the actors played such a big part in making the show as popular as it was, I really think they chose to cast actors based on their ability, and not because they fit into any kind of racial mould.

With the work that Whedon has done, I find it difficult to imagine him as anything but progressive. I feel he deliberately tries to write "outside the box". Hence, Buffy the vampire slayer. Hence the Chinese references. The show certainly had actors "of colour". I find it difficult to imagine such a person would suddenly draw the line at having Chinese actors.

Firefly is also different from a film like The Last Airbender in that it has a tighter budget and demands more commitment from its actors. There's the danger that it could end up massively successful, but with a toxic actor (like Charlie Sheen), or actors who struggle to maintain their commitment (like Star Gate SG1). The original actress for Inara, Rebecca Gayheart, was apparently a disaster. There's a lot that goes into the selection of an actor beyond race and appearance. I don't know about the opinions of people on this forum, but I felt that Kevin Sorbo and Gordon Woolvett were horribly miscast in Andromeda. To me, Kevin looked like a captain, but he didn't fill the shoes.

It's hard to speak to the process that went on behind the scenes in Firefly. It's certainly possible that Whedon was very interested to have a Chinese actor in a prominent role, but someone else drove away Asian actors without him even realising. There are plenty of ways that the production could have been racist overall, without it implicating everyone in the production. I'm certainly open to the idea that the production was racist in part or as a whole, but until there is evidence, aside from there simply being a lack of Asian actors, I can't take those accusations seriously.

Akima:

--- Quote from: ayvah on 04 Mar 2011, 14:43 ---With the work that Whedon has done, I find it difficult to imagine him as anything but progressive. I feel he deliberately tries to write "outside the box". Hence, Buffy the vampire slayer. Hence the Chinese references. The show certainly had actors "of colour". I find it difficult to imagine such a person would suddenly draw the line at having Chinese actors.
--- End quote ---
I prefer not to use the word "progressive" in this context, because it comes with a whole raft of very debatable assumptions, but I have a real problem with the idea that you can somehow separate a person from their actions, or a creator from what he puts on the screen. I'm well aware that a TV show is a team effort, but with the way people assign credit to Joss Whedon for Firefly, he can't avoid blame for its shortcomings.


--- Quote ---It's hard to speak to the process that went on behind the scenes in Firefly. It's certainly possible that Whedon was very interested to have a Chinese actor in a prominent role, but someone else drove away Asian actors without him even realising. There are plenty of ways that the production could have been racist overall, without it implicating everyone in the production. I'm certainly open to the idea that the production was racist in part or as a whole, but until there is evidence, aside from there simply being a lack of Asian actors, I can't take those accusations seriously.
--- End quote ---
Whedon has been quoted as saying that the character Kaylee was originally intended to be "Asian", but that when Jewel Staite read for the part she was so good that the Asian characterisation was abandoned. I don't have a problem with that; Jewel Staite was excellent in the role. As I've said before, the problem with casting in Firefly is not any specific role, it is the consistent pattern of casting and hiring which resulted in only one East Asian actor getting a speaking role of any kind in the entire series. If we're going to assume a level playing field in TV casting, that would imply that the creators of Firefly could only find one East Asian actor competent to play even the most minor speaking part, when other TV shows that don't make a song-and-dance about Chinese culture manage to find them. I don't find that credible, so I'm disinclined to believe a level playing-field existed. I'm sorry you don't find the casting of Firefly a problem, or evidence of anything to be taken seriously, but I do. Leaving aside all the out-of-universe issues of cultural appropriation, or career-opportunities and pay-cheques for Asian actors, I think it missed an golden opportunity to add depth to Firefly's world.


--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 04 Mar 2011, 11:09 ---Good lord. I can't imagine how offensive that is, but I do know _some_ history.
--- End quote ---
Despite how abominable the actions of Imperial Japan in China were, I'm prepared to leave them in the past, though I admit I'll probably never have 100% warm feelings towards the Japanese. Firefly runs with a mish-mash "cool Asian stuff" model that treats East Asian cultures as indistinguishable and interchangeable. That is a bit annoying, but so routine in Western pop-culture as to be "background noise". Bladerunner did the same thing, and a similar jumble of Chinese and Japanese writing appears in that film (though, unlike Firefly, along with several speaking parts for East Asian actors...). But in a future fusion culture, that's not such a big deal.

ayvah:

--- Quote from: Akima on 04 Mar 2011, 17:12 ---Whedon has been quoted as saying that the character Kaylee was originally intended to be "Asian", but that when Jewel Staite read for the part she was so good that the Asian characterisation was abandoned. I don't have a problem with that; Jewel Staite was excellent in the role. As I've said before, the problem with casting in Firefly is not any specific role, it is the consistent pattern of casting and hiring which resulted in only one East Asian actor getting a speaking role of any kind in the entire series. If we're going to assume a level playing field in TV casting, that would imply that the creators of Firefly could only find one East Asian actor competent to play even the most minor speaking part, when other TV shows that don't make a song-and-dance about Chinese culture manage to find them. I don't find that credible, so I'm disinclined to believe a level playing-field existed. I'm sorry you don't find the casting of Firefly a problem, or evidence of anything to be taken seriously, but I do. Leaving aside all the out-of-universe issues of cultural appropriation, or career-opportunities and pay-cheques for Asian actors, I think it missed an golden opportunity to add depth to Firefly's world.
--- End quote ---
I certainly agree that it would have been beneficial for the show to have had a Chinese actor in a prominent role. However, I think that where we differ is in how we perceive these other shows who have Asian actors in them. Do I believe that when they made Bones, that they deliberately looked for an Asian (half-Chinese) actress to play the part of Angela Montenegro; or do I believe that she just happened to be the best actor for the part? Does having an Asian actor make that show better than another show that would have been just as happy to take such actors?

When casting for a TV series, the creators often start with an idea of what they want their characters to be, but often they will write the roles to fit the actors.

Which is why the terminator in the Sarah Connor Chronicles learned ballet, a trademark of Summer Glau. When they cast Claudia Black in Stargate SG1, she was meant to be a minor character, but she was loved so much that she became the fifth member of the four-man-band. During the production of one episode, Michael Shanks was had to go to hospital to have his appendix removed, so they wrote him out of the episode with the excuse that his character needed to have his appendix removed. When they were casting for the role of Mohinder Suresh for Heroes (which had a serious budget to play with), they knew they wanted an Indian actor, but originally they wanted a much older actor. Ultimately, when they were impressed by Sendhil Ramamurthy's performance, they rewrote the role to suit the age of the actor they liked. Unfortunately, I can't find much background on the casting behind the Japanese character Hiro. From what I've read he was originally envisioned as a geek who loved having powers, and I'm not sure whether he became Japanese before or after casting.

I have the impression that with Firefly, they started with the intention to cast some Chinese characters, but ultimately chose the best actors for the roles. I don't think they actively looked for Asians, they just had a preference. Once you've got a good actor, stop looking; I think that's the same attitude that Bones had when it cast Angela Montenegro, and I think that's a good attitude to have.

P.S.
I have this impression that you consider Asians to be "the" oppressed minority in the US and/or Hollywood. No racism is appropriate at any time, but surely black people, Indians and Middle-Easterners cop it a lot worse than South-East Asians? As a non-American, perhaps I am making some incorrect assumptions here. Still, I have to admit it really adds to the difficulty of looking at Firefly to see racism when the cast is far from exclusively white.

P.P.S.
I'm certainly ready to admit that Firefly has shortcomings, and that Joss Whedon is responsible for some or all of them. I would be happy to discuss Firefly in general, but at the moment the subject appears to be race.

shiroihikari:
Regarding the appropriation/misappropriation of various cultures in fictional settings: American culture and the English language get butchered all the damn time in anime, and it doesn't really bother me that much.  I don't get mad when Japanese voice actors can't speak intelligible English (and they often can't).  In fact, sometimes the "funny white guy" characters are pretty awesome.  Maybe I'm too laid-back or something.  *shrug*


--- Quote from: ayvah ---I have the impression that with Firefly, they started with the intention to cast some Chinese characters, but ultimately chose the best actors for the roles. I don't think they actively looked for Asians, they just had a preference. Once you've got a good actor, stop looking; I think that's the same attitude that Bones had when it cast Angela Montenegro, and I think that's a good attitude to have.
--- End quote ---

This is how I feel about it.  I mean, if you find the right actor for the part, should it matter what race they are?  "Oh, well, your screen test was awesome, but you're white/black/green so you can't play this character."  I guess if race is relevant to the character's backstory somehow, it might be okay to tell an actor, "you're the wrong color for this character", but if they want an actor of a certain race for a part, then they should specify that from the beginning. 

Anyways, back on the subject of Firefly: Could some of you specify some of these shortcomings the series supposedly has?  I've seen it five times and have yet to spot any real flaws worth mentioning.

DoomMagnet:
My gosh this thread has become deep.

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