Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 25-29 Apr 2011 (1911-1915)
Skewbrow:
I try to address some of the points and refutations. TL; DR; alert
First and foremost. I agree with everybody that it is way too early to start patting our respective backs. Here in Finland (close enough, Carl-E!) there is probably less variation within the mainstream media than what is seen in the U.S. Mostly due to size. A population of 5 million cannot support too many TV channels for example. And the mainstream media happens to be firmly in the progressive hands (or under parliamentary control). I did forget that in a bigger country a percentage wise small group is still big enough to, say, run a TV station. So my media exposure may, indeed, be very different from yours. I should've thought about this a bit more in advance. My bad.
My U.S.A. experience is from 20+ years ago and consists of 4 years at Notre Dame, Indiana followed by a semester at Berkeley, California. Those two might represent the opposite ends of the spectrum in some sense. But even at the presumably ultra-conservative N.D. the student body had a largish enlightened faction giving support to the Gay/Lesbian student group seeking recognition. I don't know what the current status is there now. The shadow of the Vatican is long and dark. Anyway, I have been under the impression that CollegeTown, U.S.A. is a very politically correct place? Save the likes of Notre Dame and Brigham Young, where political correctness is limited to gender and race, or some really wacko smaller colleges (Is Oral Roberts still in operation?). But again. The filter formed by geographic distance means that to me U.S. mainstream media is from D.C., New York City or LA, but to LJA and you all it may mean something else. Yes, I am aware that I do not have a complete picture, but my understanding is that she was talking about stereotypes in media like nationwide TV networks, NYT and such. Not some televangelist's private channel.
I don't know if Northern Europe is more PC than the U.S.? May be we are? At least when it comes to gender equality. When dealing with racial diversity the melting pots of the world are ahead of us. Immigration to Finland is such a small phenomenon that the presumed political correctness has not been tested. A large number of people outside major towns have never met a person of a different ethnicity, so the dealings could be clumsy, even if the intentions were the best. Also a large fraction of the immigrants are refugees, and they are easy prey for some given that it takes a lot of time for them to start contributing to the economy.
I am unable to tell whether we are ahead or behind U.S. in gay rights. Here the homosexual couples were given the right to get a "registered relationship" giving them most of the same legal rights and obligations that married couples have e.g. in case of a death or a divorce and for the purposes of taxation. The currently debated questions are whether homosexual couples should have the right to adopt children, and whether the "registered relationship" should be called a marriage, and brought under the same law with heterosexual marriage. We are a little bit behind the other Nordic countries like Sweden that aspires to be the politically correct utopia.
All this is relative recent (mostly 21st century). In terms of legislation we are now at a relatively good point. The battle in the minds and hearts of people is, unfortunately, still ongoing. Gay/lesbian activities as well as the immigrants occasionally attract violent acts. Gays are excused of military service (general conscription for men, voluntary military service for women). I don't know, whether homosexuals are prohibited from service or not? So can't claim us to be more progressive than the U.S. armed forces. Our incumbent president was a gay/lesbian activist in her youth. I don't know, whether she did that to show off how progressive she is, or whether she had a personal take on the matter. We are unlikely to elect a non-caucasian president in the foreseeable future, though.
Where do I stand in all this? My choice of phrase ("media darlings", "walking on eggshells our toes") was meant to convey that I don't consider myself to be fully PC. Not all of it is second nature to me, and I occasionally need to operate on something like Momo's database of protocols. For example, I will laugh at some markedly politically incorrect jokes. While that is perhaps the most harmless form of homophobia/racism/sexism, it is also something relatively deep inside my core.
We are definitely not there, yet.
Carl-E:
The cultural divide is probably deeper than you may have thought, skewbrow. For one thing, college towns and campuses (including large private ones like Notre Dame) are considerably more liberally minded and accepting than most of the rest of the country. The proliferation of colleges is one of the reasons the east coast and large cities are considered to be so liberal. Thought there are a lot of colleges in the midwest, they are spread thinner and have less influence on the general population, and it's worse in the soutwest and the "bible belt", where the majority of colleges are smaller, private and more conservative institutions (Oral Roberts University is thriving, btw).
Media is a whole different story - it works sooooo hard not to step on anyone's toes for fear of offending a part of the public that their advertisers cater to. So despite being painted as "liberal", much of the US media is held hostage by a conservative audience.
Here in the US, states decide on marriage, it's not a federal institution. Some have what are called "civil unions" (I think only about 10 states have these) and only 5 states and the District of Columbia have legal same sex marriage. That's 15 out of 50. Reciprocity laws aren't universal, and so having a civil union/marriage in one state doesn't help if you're in another state that doesn't recognize such a union. You can't inherit, adopt, or make decisions about your partners medical issues, or even visit them in the hospital if visitation is restricted to family only, as are most ICU's. Forget insurance from your partner's work (although most unionized jobs allow it, as do some private companies). You live in a legal limbo, and it can be a nightmare.
So yes, Finland (and many other European countries) are well ahead of the US, since the laws are at least nationally recognized. And others are well behind; much of South America, Africa and Asia come to mind. But I think we're in a unique spot, because of the hodgepodge way in which the US was cobbled together. It'll be a much harder and longer road for us to become a nation that can deal with these issues in a consistant way.
Boomslang:
Honestly, I think in the US it's just a matter of time.
If you look at the graphs of positions on social issues versus age, younger people in every area tend to have more progressive views and this trend is increasing over time. The US as a whole is also becoming less religious, and let's face it- religion is one of the few reasons that people here are opposing giving gay folks the same rights as the rest of us.
I hate to be the one who says 'just wait it out', but I genuinely feel that as long as this battle takes, the people on the right side of history are guaranteed the win in the long run.
However, I can't talk to people like LJA because trying to think about this from her (?) perspective makes my brain hurt and my blood pressure rise. There is definitely such a thing as hurting your own side's position based on the manner in which you engage in argument, and I wish people could recognize that dividing line. LJA, I know you mean well, but you really should change your approach, it's ultra-confrontational and makes you out to be the thought-police.
Carl-E:
While America has become slightly "less religious" (going from about 11% non-religious in the 80's to about 16% now), what's more telling is that the liberal denominations in most religions have declined while the conservative denominations have all showed growth (this includes Jewish and Muslim groups as well as Christians). So what's been happening is what we see in many other aspects of the culture, including our madia and politics - a wider gap and greater polarization.
It will come, yes. Because it's right, indeed.
But it's gonna be a looooong time comin'!
Is it cold in here?:
Not all. Ohnorobot is missing a chunk in the 900s, and stops completely somewhere in the 1200s. The completion of the professionally done transcription of everything hasn't been announced yet.
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