Topic: WCDT 6-10 June 2011 (1941-1945) [World War II Edition] (Read 90004 times)

Mr. Doctor · « **Reply #200 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:35 »

I would allow that relationship only if Jim shaves that ugly as hell... thing on his chin.

Boomslang · « **Reply #201 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:39 »

Part of me wants to see Dora say yes. But that part of me also feeds off of drama and angst.

Really though, the repercussions of this could be significant. Dora is not in a good state, and she clearly isn't naturally attracted to Jim like she was with Marten. If she takes it badly, then an entire house of cards might come crashing down. I can't really imagine QC without coffee of doom, but I've always had the impression it's an apocalypse waiting to happen.

TheBiscuit · « **Reply #202 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:40 »

I suspect Jim will be out of luck. He's a somewhat charming fellow, but I doubt Dora is looking for a relationship now, and if she was something tells me an older man would never be her choice. She considers herself young at heart, and while Jim apparently sees maturity as sexy, Dora appears not to.

VonKleist · « **Reply #203 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:40 »

Hah.

Saw that coming from miles away

Here, I´ll do an ASCII-sketch of the 4. panel, which is my favorite today

^_^ ^_^

hahahahahah

keikun496 · « **Reply #204 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:41 »

slowness, but I doubt this is going to get anywhere. Dora still needs to work out her issues.

PS, Raven's tattoo and immediately though hime. Seems like something Raven would get.

O8h7w · « **Reply #205 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:53 »

Quote from: Boomslang on 09 Jun 2011, 02:39

Part of me wants to see Dora say yes. But that part of me also feeds off of drama and angst.

Really though, the repercussions of this could be significant. Dora is not in a good state, and she clearly isn't naturally attracted to Jim like she was with Marten. If she takes it badly, then an entire house of cards might come crashing down. I can't really imagine QC without coffee of doom, but I've always had the impression it's an apocalypse waiting to happen.

I have pointed it out before, but I feel like doing it again.

Dora can crash and burn without neither CoD nor herself being history.

I know this from experience - I have just gotten through the first year of five in my studies for a Master in Engineering, with a substantial depression. It's perfectly possible to work (albeit slowly) 10 hours a day, cry 7 hours and sleep 6 hours. Not good at all, not easy, but you can get through a mental breakdown without everything around you also falling down. Of course, when there is helpful friends around it does help. And I don't exactly feel Dora is short on those, unlike me.

hannahsaurusrex · « **Reply #206 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 02:54 »

But she still loves Marten! But Jim is pursuing her like a man! But Marten loves her! But Jim has hair of SILVER! But she still has issues! But he can bake!

WHAT TO DO?!?!??!

NotAwesomeAnymore · « **Reply #207 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:03 »

Love triangle!-ish. I'm not sure if this is the unwelcome sort of speculation, but IF Dora were to go into a relationship right now, who would be a better match for her? Tai is pretty carefree, assertive and has known Dora for a while (also girl-on-girl fyeah), but Jim is a fellow entrepreneur and may handle issues in a more mature way than Marten did (I'm making this assumption because he looks old).

Quote from: Boomslang on 09 Jun 2011, 02:39

Part of me wants to see Dora say yes. But that part of me also feeds off of drama and angst.

Really though, the repercussions of this could be significant. Dora is not in a good state, and she clearly isn't naturally attracted to Jim like she was with Marten. If she takes it badly, then an entire house of cards might come crashing down. I can't really imagine QC without coffee of doom, but I've always had the impression it's an apocalypse waiting to happen.

As much as I agree that Dora has issues, I don't think she's constantly on the verge of psychosis. Her break-up with Marten had no effect on her business other than the loss of one customer and I don't think a guy asking her out will tip the boat. That's not really what her issues were about anyway, was it?

pwhodges · « **Reply #208 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:14 »

Quote from: NotAwesomeAnymore on 09 Jun 2011, 03:03

I'm not sure if this is the unwelcome sort of speculation,

As Jeph has set up two current possibilities for Dora, he can hardly expect us not to discuss the matter to some extent. Just keep it sensible. Of course, we'll let you know soon enough if we consider the speculation gets out of bounds.

Akima · « **Reply #209 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:17 »

Quote from: Mr. Doctor on 09 Jun 2011, 02:35

I would allow that relationship only if Jim shaves that ugly as hell... thing on his chin.

Yeah, and the perma-stubble too. If I were Dora, my dirty-old-man alarm would be ringing. The parallel expressions until we get to the last panel punchline made me giggle.

Quote from: NotAwesomeAnymore on 09 Jun 2011, 03:03

Jim is a fellow entrepreneur and may handle issues in a more mature way than Marten did (I'm making this assumption because he looks old).

What? He's packing a whole napsack of issues from his failed (N.B. failed) marriage and divorce. And yeah, I'd guess he has 15-20 years on Dora.

pwhodges · « **Reply #210 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:19 »

One can learn from a failed marriage, you know.

(How do I know? Guess...)

Tiogyr · « **Reply #211 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:22 »

Quote from: pwhodges on 09 Jun 2011, 03:19

One can learn from a failed marriage, you know.

(How do I know? Guess...)

You aren't trying to hook up with women 15 years or more your junior, though, right?

snubnose · « **Reply #212 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:25 »

Quote from: snubnose on 09 Jun 2011, 02:15

OMG ROTFL

Todays comic is absolutely awesome !

Wait .. that wasnt even the comic of today ! I forgot to check QC yesterday ! Oh. My. God !!!

Todays comic ... cant make my mind up about it, yet.

pwhodges · « **Reply #213 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:28 »

Quote from: Tiogyr on 09 Jun 2011, 03:22

You aren't trying to hook up with women 15 years or more your junior, though, right?

True - my second wife is only eight years my junior

(39 vs 47 was not such a big issue, though we had serious discussions about it, mainly concerned with the difference in our life expectancy.)

snubnose · « **Reply #214 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:28 »

Quote from: Akima on 09 Jun 2011, 03:17

And yeah, I'd guess he has 15-20 years on Dora.

Uh-hu.

Sorry, I cant see it.

Its just you cant tell age in QC at all, really.

At the moment I root for Tai. She's funny and stuff. But we'll see.

NotAwesomeAnymore · « **Reply #215 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:33 »

What if Tai is actually his daughter? The math checks out!

O8h7w · « **Reply #216 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:37 »

Yes, it does, if we guess Jim is at least 40 years old - but I don't. I'm guessing 35.

Dora should be ~~28 or 29~~, IIRC, and I think she wouldn't hook up with someone as much as a year older than herself - you know, because they would be as old as her brother...

EDIT: In strip 144 she's 26, and that is supposedly not more than two years ago. So she should be 27 or 28.

VonKleist · « **Reply #217 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:49 »

Quote from: O8h7w on 09 Jun 2011, 03:37

you know, because they would be as old as her brother...

I fail to see your point O.o

TheBiscuit · « **Reply #218 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 03:51 »

Quote from: snubnose on 09 Jun 2011, 03:28

At the moment I root for Tai. She's funny and stuff. But we'll see.

She is... but then she is also a deeply amoral and selfish person. Were I in Marten's position I would see her as a fun co-worker, but not as any kind of potential friend. Since I'm a naturally cautious person, after getting to know her I would do everything possible to prevent her meeting any of my friends. She is drama waiting to happen.

I don't exactly dislike Tai, but I wouldn't be hugely enthusiastic about her being around anyone I cared about. Certainly not if she was likely to find them attractive, and even more so if that person was in any way emotionally vulnerable.

Also: This comic needs more Marigold. The comic is back to being decent again, has been for a while actually... but Marigold is essential. Pretty much the main character I look forward to reading about.

Doctor Online · « **Reply #219 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 04:00 »

Quote from: O8h7w on 09 Jun 2011, 03:37

you know, because they would be as old as her brother...

Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks like that. Maybe not completely on my level, but recognizes that there are some of us that just don't feel comfortable with the age gaps. While some say love knows no numbers... I say "Ugh". But of course, that's just me. I don't treat older men like they're total creepers when they hit on me, unless they're obviously being a creeper. I take it as a compliment, but the idea of even entertaining the thought of dating an older man? Just no.

I come from a family where my mom is 15 years older than my brother, my brother is 7 years older than me, my dad outright refuses to set foot in a strip club or anything of the sort "because they're the same age as my daughter." I'm honestly repulsed by the "cougar" fad, and same goes for men with way younger women. I never would date a guy my brothers age either. This is just my own personal preference though.

I know there may be some that don't agree with me, I'm not looking to argue over the matter. It's all in personal preference. =P

Where I was getting at is, maybe, just maybe, Dora has similar feelings on the matter. It's never been discussed, but the expressions on her face whenever Jim comes around speaks for the lack of words. I'm reading her expressions as "...this is very uncomfortable." but I could be wrong.

*Edit- 2 new posts separating the post I was responding to. Trying to not cause confusion.

Dr. ROFLPWN · « **Reply #220 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 04:34 »

Jim: Resist urge to ask Dora out.

You fail to resist the urge.

The audience is shocked at your forward manner!

Dora: Consider.

On the one hand, you do not know this man very well, and you just got out of a serious relationship!

On the other hand, he looks like Littlefinger from Game of Thrones, only not as much of a douche!

Plus, as has been stated, he can bake.

This is a conundrum for the ages.

Tova · « **Reply #221 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:13 »

Your signature made a nice punchline to your post.

Tiogyr · « **Reply #222 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:26 »

Quote from: snubnose on 09 Jun 2011, 03:28

Quote from: Akima on 09 Jun 2011, 03:17
And yeah, I'd guess he has 15-20 years on Dora.
Uh-hu.

Sorry, I cant see it.

Its just you cant tell age in QC at all, really.

It's the white hair, I'd wager. Mainly because everyone we've seen in-comic with white hair has actually been that much older than people that still have color in their hair.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #223 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:28 »

I can't see him making that big a deal about it if Dora politely rejects him, and this not affecting their arrangement. Still, with a semi-twist like this, I'm surprised it's not a Friday strip.

Akima · « **Reply #224 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:33 »

Quote from: O8h7w on 09 Jun 2011, 03:37

Yes, it does, if we guess Jim is at least 40 years old - but I don't. I'm guessing 35.

He has silver temples... I don't know many under-40s, or even under-45s who are rocking those. I'm sure it's possible, but it's not the way to bet.

Quote from: pwhodges on 09 Jun 2011, 03:19

One can learn from a failed marriage, you know.

I'm sure that is true. Just as one can fill an inside straight.

So far the only lesson we've seen Jim learn is "Hire a better lawyer".

rje · « **Reply #225 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:34 »

Wow I actually...wasn't expecting that. But I like being surprised, so yay!
And I have to admit, when I was under 25 I would never have gone out with anyone more than five years older than me, and that was pushing it, but now that I'm 31 I look at the matter a little differently, so idk, it doesnt strike me as ew that he's asking her out. Plus I kinda dig the silver sideburns/full color hair look >u> Distinguished, I think the word is.

I am almost positive Dora's gonna say no but she could say yes just to have some fun. (Not that kind of fun necessarily ahaha) .. you don't have to go out with anyone to become an item with them, and I bet Jim could afford some fancy dates and nice trips .. |D As long as she was up front like 'I'm not looking for anything serious at all' cos I doubt he is either.
But nahhh I don't think she's ready to even date casually atm.

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #226 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:46 »

Quote from: Tova on 08 Jun 2011, 21:18

Quote from: TheEvilDog on 08 Jun 2011, 19:12
Les Paul's 94 birthday today, so does anyone think we'll be seeing a subtle reference in today's comic?
Have you seen google's front page today?

No, and I certainly didn't play a pseudo-smoke on the water riff for about half an hour... >_>, <_<, >_>.....

Anyway, today's comic. Someone better make sure that Jim and Tai are never left in the same room alone, or there'll be a murder.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #227 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:48 »

I think it's highly unlikely, although how long is it since she broke up with Marten?

That said... she does find gray hair potentially hot: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1515

Emperor Norton · « **Reply #228 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 05:56 »

Quote from: Akima on 09 Jun 2011, 05:33

Quote from: O8h7w on 09 Jun 2011, 03:37
Yes, it does, if we guess Jim is at least 40 years old - but I don't. I'm guessing 35.
He has silver temples... I don't know many under-40s, or even under-45s who are rocking those. I'm sure it's possible, but it's not the way to bet.

I had a teacher in high school who was about 36 and he had almost completely grey hair. My wife is also getting grey hair and she is only 26.

As for the difference in age thing, I think it changes more the older you get. I'm pretty inured to it myself (my dad is nearly 20 years older than my mom), but the thing is... a 5-7 year difference really isn't all that much in your late 20s/early 30s. Yeah, maybe 18 and 25 sounds kind of skeevy to some people, but does 29 and 36? How about 32 and 39?

bhtooefr · « **Reply #229 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 06:19 »

There's always the good old age/2+7 formula.

So, reversing it... if Dora's 26:

26 - 7 = 19 * 2 = 38

And if she's 28:

28 - 7 = 21 * 2 = 42

Nornin · « **Reply #230 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 06:32 »

Quote from: TheBiscuit on 09 Jun 2011, 02:40

I suspect Jim will be out of luck. He's a somewhat charming fellow, but I doubt Dora is looking for a relationship now, and if she was something tells me an older man would never be her choice. She considers herself young at heart, and while Jim apparently sees maturity as sexy, Dora appears not to.

I have the totally oposite oppinion.
I think she is really into older guys, someone to protect her and soothe her broken ego.
But I don't think it would last.

Nornin · « **Reply #231 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 06:40 »

Quote from: Akima on 09 Jun 2011, 05:33

Quote from: O8h7w on 09 Jun 2011, 03:37
Yes, it does, if we guess Jim is at least 40 years old - but I don't. I'm guessing 35.
He has silver temples... I don't know many under-40s, or even under-45s who are rocking those. I'm sure it's possible, but it's not the way to bet.

I don't know if I should kick you or slap you

I'm only 34 and even though my temples are not silver (and never will be since I'm a girl) I have found the occasional gray hair!
A friend of mine is 36 and his temples are almost totally silver!

I'd say Jim was 38-42 and if Dora is 26(7) he is 12-16 years older than she is.
I would go for it if I was Dora

stoutfiles · « **Reply #232 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 06:53 »

Jim: Successful business owner in his late 30s / early 40s. Ambitious, knows what he wants in life.

Marten: Hipster townie who works at library and hangs out at coffee shops. Mid 20's? Has no ambition to do anything else with his life besides the occasional daydream.

Hmm, which one would be better for Dora? Or for any girl?

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #233 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:00 »

Quote from: bhtooefr on 09 Jun 2011, 06:19

There's always the good old age/2+7 formula.
So, reversing it... if Dora's 26:
26 - 7 = 19 * 2 = 38
And if she's 28:
28 - 7 = 21 * 2 = 42

I call BOMDAS on your maths. In fact looking at the order you've done it, I can hear my old maths teacher crying in the distance.

kent_eh · « **Reply #234 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:06 »

Quote from: Akima on 09 Jun 2011, 05:33

Quote from: O8h7w on 09 Jun 2011, 03:37
Yes, it does, if we guess Jim is at least 40 years old - but I don't. I'm guessing 35.
He has silver temples... I don't know many under-40s, or even under-45s who are rocking those. I'm sure it's possible, but it's not the way to bet.

My cousin was full-on grey by the time he was 30. We're talking "Man from Glad" white.

It happens.
Look at Steve Martin or Leslie Neilson. Fully grey quite early in life.

Also, I've lived the experience that prolonged periods of heavy stress *can* bring on some grey prematurely.

That said, I don't think this will go anywhere. Maybe "just friends", but probably she'll pull out the "just ended...not ready to ... "

Mr. Doctor · « **Reply #235 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:13 »

Quote from: TheEvilDog on 09 Jun 2011, 07:00

Quote from: bhtooefr on 09 Jun 2011, 06:19
There's always the good old age/2+7 formula.
So, reversing it... if Dora's 26:
26 - 7 = 19 * 2 = 38
And if she's 28:
28 - 7 = 21 * 2 = 42

I call BOMDAS on your maths. In fact looking at the order you've done it, I can hear my old maths teacher crying in the distance.

Explain that to me, because from the way I see it... I don't see how the "reverse formula" is bad.

mike837go · « **Reply #236 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:14 »

"BOMDAS"?

Looked it up........

Oh, we didn't have an acronym for that when I was in school.

We just followed the rules.

grimeyville · « **Reply #237 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:14 »

We have a very nice dichotomy growing.

On Marten's side, he's... Trying to find something, anything, consolation. Yet... He isn't. It's like, he was trying to buddy up with Padma with no good result to that one.

He's tried to look for consolation, and well... He's been flying about like a drunken Albatross. His mom said he was strong enough to deal basically, and well, I guess we can say he's trying to be better about this, or will try to be better after considering what Padme and Renee have said.

Then again, on Dora's side... People want her, which just speaks volumes. I hope she shuts down everyone honestly, because well... From just my experience, people in therapy stop going when they get relationships. As though that may fix everything some how, and then it might just make things work if the significant other doesn't know about it and... We'll have the Marten/Dora break-up 2.0.

I actually hope Dora and Tai get together, just so Tai can experience what it's like to date ~~Dora~~ first hand.

Also hopeful that Tai is Jim's daughter. <_< That'd be... Awesome.

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #238 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:17 »

Quote from: Mr. Doctor on 09 Jun 2011, 07:13

Explain that to me, because from the way I see it... I don't see how the "reverse formula" is bad.

BOMDAS - Brackets of Mulitplication, Division, Adding, Subtraction. Thats the order you're taught to work out mathematical forumla.

Mr. Doctor · « **Reply #239 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:21 »

I knwo that but the formula he wrote is in reverse, therefore he must subtract 7 first.

Original forumla:
Old age/ 2 +7
We take 50 as an example:

50 / 2 = 25 => 25+7 = 32

What bhtooefr wrote is the following.. the reverse forumla from 32 to 50
32 - 7 = 25 => 25*2 = 50

...Why is it so hard to write forumla...forumbleh.. ARRRRGH FORMULA

Tiogyr · « **Reply #240 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:23 »

EDIT: Spent another five seconds thinking about it and here you go.

(2 * Younger Age) - 7 = Maximum age you can date without it being creepy.

So if Dora is 26, then 45 is the oldest she can date if you go by that dumb formula that we've just shown is broken, because a 26 year old dating a 45 year old is creepy as hell.

EDIT #2: Hell, I'm 30 and would feel weird about dating a 26 year old. 28 would only be slightly better because by then it is safe to assume that she'd be done with college stuff too and actually finished growing up (unlike an unbelievable number of people in their 20s that think it is still cool to go to bars that knowingly serve underage kids).

Mr. Doctor · « **Reply #241 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:27 »

Hey Tiogyr, the formula you wrote is not the same as the one I make, I can go from 50 to 32 with the original formula but with yours I can't go from 32 to 50

The one I wrote that was the reverse of the old age formula is (younger age -7) * 2

Quote from: Doctor Online on 09 Jun 2011, 04:00

Where I was getting at is, maybe, just maybe, Dora has similar feelings on the matter. It's never been discussed, but the expressions on her face whenever Jim comes around speaks for the lack of words. I'm reading her expressions as "...this is very uncomfortable." but I could be wrong.

Even if she had te thought "...this is very uncomfortable"... That doesn't need to have anything to do with his age. That situation can still be awkward with a person of the same age just staring at you in silence.

Elysiana · « **Reply #242 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:39 »

First, BOMDAS/BODMAS is brackets, orders (exponents), division/multiplication, addition/subtraction (I have no idea what "brackets of multiplication" would be). Also known as PEMDAS and several other things. But the "lowest acceptable dating age" formula has always been half your age plus 7. Nobody has ever claimed that it's a hard and fast rule, it's just an easy way to remember to keep things in perspective.

Second, Dora just entered into a business relationship with Jim. I reeeeally feel uncomfortable with the notion of her entering into a romantic one with him too at this point. It just seems unwise. Also Dora is so cute when she's caught off-guard. I chuckled.

Mr. Doctor · « **Reply #243 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:42 »

I think everybody can agree that the formula doesn't really work well... The discussion was just about math

Spectreofwar · « **Reply #244 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:43 »

Quote from: Akima on 09 Jun 2011, 05:33

He has silver temples... I don't know many under-40s, or even under-45s who are rocking those. I'm sure it's possible, but it's not the way to bet.

I was "rocking" (through much ridicule) an entire head of silver by age 14. Completely naturally.

It's very possible.

pwhodges · « **Reply #245 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:52 »

A child I knew was told off for going to school with her hair dyed blue. When she asked why, she was told "it's un-natural". So then she dyed it silver, and when called into the head's office, she just looked pointedly at the head's hair... and was sent away.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #246 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:56 »

(younger age * 2) - 7 fails.

The formula for minimum age of a partner, in RPN to remove ALL ambiguity is:

Your_age 2 / 7 +

So, formula for maximum age would be:

Your_age 7 - 2 *

(Then again, the formula tends to be applied to older man, younger woman, exclusively.)

Still, there are situations in which it can produce creepy results (past 30, the spread gets quite wide), and the formula completely fails below 14, as, for a 13 year old, it says that the youngest you can date is 13.5, but the oldest you can date is 12 (then again, the formula could be saying, "don't date at all if you're under 14", which is probably quite sound advice). But, during high school years through the 20s, it generally works fairly well, at least in the original intent, and beyond that, it sets a fairly good absolute maximum line for social acceptability of older man, younger woman.

TheEvilDog · « **Reply #247 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:56 »

Quote from: Mr. Doctor on 09 Jun 2011, 07:42

I think everybody can agree that the formula doesn't really work well... The discussion was just about math

But you have to admit that BOMDAS is just funnier than SADMOB

Back on topic. I don't really see a problem with people going out with someone older/younger than they are, when I first met my ex, she was going out with a guy 12 years older than her (18/30). When we went out, there was just a year between us.. But its not something I grew up with though, my parents were born within 5 months of each, my grandparents a week, my uncles are married to women the same age as them, so its just something I don't have much experience with. But by the same token, it doesn't bother me. The only thing that should matter is that two people connect in a way that is important to them and to them alone.

Cybit · « **Reply #248 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:57 »

So, are we taking bets on him asking her to dinner for something other then romance, for sheer "mess with everyone hilarity?" (IE, he wants to talk about the deal they have, and is getting horribly misinterpreted)

Actually, seeing that tomorrow is Friday, I suspect a yes from Dora. Or better yet, Dora takes him to Tai's party.

Tiogyr · « **Reply #249 on:** 09 Jun 2011, 07:58 »

Quote from: Mr. Doctor on 09 Jun 2011, 07:27

Hey Tiogyr, the formula you wrote is not the same as the one I make, I can go from 50 to 32 with the original formula but with yours I can't go from 32 to 50

The one I wrote that was the reverse of the old age formula is (younger age -7) * 2

That is because the original formula cannot be reversed while sticking to that BOMDAS rule, which was the point.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Poll

Is Marten a townie?

Author Topic: WCDT 6-10 June 2011 (1941-1945) [World War II Edition] (Read 90004 times)

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