Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT

WCDT 2101-2105 (January 16-20, 2012) - A New Hope

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pwhodges:

--- Quote from: Milesb on 17 Jan 2012, 14:56 ---If you give someone advice you can't follow yourself, shouldn't you be in a good position to know how difficult that advice is to follow (if the person has a similar issue or problem as your own)?
--- End quote ---

If you are trying, but failing, you are not being hypocritical; if you are not trying (even if because you think it will be too hard) then you are.  I can see that cases can be contrived to show that the boundary is not as clear-cut as that sounds.

Milesb:

--- Quote from: pwhodges on 17 Jan 2012, 15:08 ---If you are trying, but failing, you are not being hypocritical; if you are not trying (even if because you think it will be too hard) then you are.  I can see that cases can be contrived to show that the boundary is not as clear-cut as that sounds.

--- End quote ---

I concede that point, very well put. (with agreement on the fact that the boundaries could be difficult to define)

I think without really realizing it I was questioning the wider validity of advice given which you can't follow yourself (in the trying and failing sense) - I think it's a question of how achievable actions based on advice may be, and whether it's sometimes very easy to state an obvious solution without considering the required steps in between which actually allow the advice to be followed.

Blackjoker:

--- Quote from: Andy147 on 17 Jan 2012, 01:38 ---"But nature or not, you're never gonna be happy if you go through life just letting things happen to you" - like, say, letting Faye approach you and become a close friend, or letting Dora pounce on you and become your girlfriend?

"You gotta DO stuff" - like, say, standing up to your girlfriend when you think she's behaved objectionally, and thus ending the relationship, or standing up to your mother when she's being obnoxious, and being made to look stupid in front of your friends? Or chasing another girlfriend across the country and getting your heart broken and winding up in a dead-end job?

I don't even see how "going along with Padma's wish to let the relationship drift to a close at a time of her choosing" would count as DOING stuff more than "deciding to break it off in a fit of pique" does.

For that matter, what's Faye done that's so impressive since breaking the ice with Marten 2 years ago? Seduce Sven? Wow, that worked out well for everyone.

tl;dr - Faye's spiel today reads (to me) annoyingly like one of those glib morals you used to get at the end of US sitcom episodes, and one which isn't remotely borne out by the previous 2100 strips.


--- End quote ---

Yes, there have been times where his assertiveness didn't work. However, those problems had more to do with who he was assertive to than the assertiveness itself. I don't deny the basic point, as mentioned before Marten being assertive has had some trouble in the past. The problem is though that his passivity isn't going to make things any better either. I don't know what Marten could have done in the Padma situation that would have worked but as it is he either needs to be able to stand up and do it enough that he can do it consistently or he has to reevaluate himself. Marten has had a lot of bad shit happen to him but that doesn't absolve him of needing to try to improve himself or things in his life. The universe doesn't hand out rewards after you've been dragged through that sort of thing just because, otherwise the third world wouldn't be.

Tova:
Hi, I'm back - hopefully with better quality posts than yesterday (instead of quantity). I have to remind myself that experience is that quality that allows you to recognise your mistakes when you make them again.  :roll:

I agree (although it didn't occur to me at the time) that Faye's spiel does read a bit like a glib moral at the end of a US sitcom episode. Easier said than done, even - especially for someone who is passive by nature. Still, I'm not sure that anyone here is going to argue that it would be bad for Marten to become a little less passive in his life.

Still, he's tried before and been kicked, right? That's going to make it harder for him. True, and I've got a couple of observations about that.

First of all, Marten becoming less passive is really going to be a process of focussing less on simply pleasing those around him and more on his own needs and goals. Well, it stands to reason that his first attempts at doing so are going to involve people being ... well ... less than pleased with him. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't persevere! It's a matter of learning his personal boundaries - balancing his own needs and desires against those of the people around him.


--- Quote from: Blackjoker on 17 Jan 2012, 16:53 ---"You gotta DO stuff" - like, say, standing up to your girlfriend when you think she's behaved objectionally, and thus ending the relationship, or standing up to your mother when she's being obnoxious, and being made to look stupid in front of your friends? Or chasing another girlfriend across the country and getting your heart broken and winding up in a dead-end job?

--- End quote ---

The burned hand teaches best, but hopefully it should teach the right lesson. Let's look at those examples one by one.

"standing up to your girlfriend when you think she's behaved objectionally"
(hoo boy my archive-fu skills are lacking)
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797

When did this really go off the rails? It wasn't when he stood up to her - if he'd simply insisted that she crossed a line and he was angry about it, I think this episode would have ended fine (this time at least). Where it really went wrong was where Marten made a snipey, bitter statement that indicated that he was carrying around anger about Dora's past mistakes as well. Now, I don't want to get into a massive revisiting of the whole breakup topic - I just want to say that they didn't break up purely because he stood up to her. It's more complex than that.

"standing up to your mother when she's being obnoxious"
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1835
This is actually pretty much the same issue - instead of resolving the issue at the time, he carries it around with him, then it comes out in a totally snarky, inappropriate manner when all his mother is doing is asking what everyone would like to do next. That wasn't standing up to her when she was being obnoxious, it was being passive aggressive when she wasn't. Before you start on me - I am not placing fault, nor am I saying that Marten's mother dealt with the situation perfectly or even close to it. All I am saying is that had he been properly assertive instead of just rude, then he would not have had to be embarrased.

"chasing another girlfriend across the country and getting your heart broken and winding up in a dead-end job"
(no particular comic for this one - phew)
That's a fair comment - the immediate outcome wasn't what he wanted. But again, I hope he would learn that right lesson from this. I won't try and discuss what the right lesson is, because that's yet another can of worms. But I would like to the think that the lesson is NOT "stop trying, you'll only get hurt."

Well, it still ended up too long, but hopefully it's a bit better than yesterdays efforts.   :-)

Is it cold in here?:
I'm thinking of the movie "Pushing Hands", about a Tai Chi master who moves from China to live with his Americanized family.

The characters who believed in not interfering with the natural flow of events had to learn to take action: the characters from the Western mindset had to learn not to meddle and to let things happen in their own time.

Andy147 makes a great point that Marten has gotten good things by just letting them happen, but sometimes you just have to go out and get the soup.

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