Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

More Marigold Awkward Sex Talk!

6 (8%)

More Claire/Clinton Fighting!

5 (6.7%)

Hannelore Draws Moar Kittehs!

9 (12%)

Marten Is Amused!

9 (12%)

Faye and Angus - The Beginning of The End!

4 (5.3%)

Dora/Tai - The Next Day!

18 (24%)

Emily and Gabby do something weird!

11 (14.7%)

Another New Meme Attempt!

4 (5.3%)

An Old Meme Returns! (Waffles! Spathe Ham! LASERS!)

1 (1.3%)

Hitting the F5 key repeatedly to see if Jeph's updated the strip yet!

8 (10.7%)

Total Members Voted: 68

[Throg]

Huh. I woulda sworn that Jeph would've chosen Emily's name to be Osaka...but the influences are pretty clear anyway.  I hear Emily's dialogue in Osaka's (japanese) intonation anyway. 

But from the previous strip (Emily and banana in back pocket) it seems that no one is immune to butts disease.

[pwhodges]

No different than asking people "you mean your owner?" ...

It is not clear, it seems to me, that there are not still some anthroPCs that are owned, as well as those with the newish standard contract.  In these circumstances, asking about ownership might still be OK, though perhaps assuming it would be unacceptable - Emily's question can actually be taken either way.

[Sylentknight]

I've come to assume that Emily's purpose is to ask the uncomfortable questions, possible as someone who looks at the world from outside the culture.  I imagine there are places in the world where sentient technology is not allowed. Especially cultures that are very homogeneous or religious (as in "only God can create life"). I'm not saying that Emily is from one of these cultures or believes these things (obviously because she wants to be a toaster), but since most to the characters seem to posses the same perspectives and interests, maybe Emily is suppose to be the nails on the chalkboard for QC.

[Arancaytar]

Contract aside, the relationship between Marigold and Momo is very much different, clearly one that exists on much more equal footing.  Regarding today's comic - it is interesting that:
a) Momo is not "owned" by Marigold, since it's been fairly well established that Marten owns Pintsize and that PT410X also has an owner.  (In that comic, though, note that PT410X puts the word 'owner' in quotes.  He doesn't consider himself owned - he had self-declared his independence before it was even law.)
b) Momo called the contract "standard." That would seem to imply said contract was not only established, but commonplace at the time that Marigold and Momo signed it.  That means that the AIERA has already been established for a significant amount of time, long enough for its changes to no longer be a cause to bat an eyelash.  Jeph's comment further implies that sufficient time has passed (since ratification) for Emily to understand that questions of ownership and function (i.e. purpose) should be considered highly insulting.

It's possible, of course, that Pintsize has been with Marten far longer than Momo with Marigold, and AIERA falls in between. However, the legal recognition of android rights is not required for their implicit approval. Legislation is always slow, and if AIERA was an international agreement, then it was even longer in the making (and then ratification), while the bill already had strong popular support. Maybe AIs were considered able to enter contracts before AIERA - or the actual contract was with the creche.

Edit: On second thought, Momo didn't even say that the "standard" contract they entered was the start of their relationship and that Marigold has never been her owner. AIERA might have resulted in any formal "ownership" being invalidated, and renegotiated into a "standard mutual companionship contract".

[pwhodges]

Huh. I woulda sworn that Jeph would've chosen Emily's name to be Osaka...

Or more properly: Kasuga (Osaka being only a nickname) - but then more people wouldn't have got it.

[celticgeek]

I would have thought that Emily, who is a computer science major, would be aware of these things.

[Border Reiver]

Will Emily later be revealed to be an anthroPC ala the final Five?

And if so, where's Tigh and the Chief?

I miss BSG.....

[Y]

"Standard mutual companionship contract" sounds like marriage.

Being a toaster does sound easy. Who hasn't thought about being a [insert animal that isn't being slaughtered for food by humans or other animals]? Toasters would only have to toast some bread in the morning and entertain the own... companion whenever s/he is in the kitchen. BMO from Adventure Time comes to mind(Yes, Tai got me into watching that one).

[Exar_Kun]

I guess what makes me most uncomfortable is that no matter WHAT YOU CALL IT, if money changed hands, then you are still buying a thinking being. Maybe I am unfairly equating an AnthroPC store with an iPhone store or whatnot. I think what made me draw that conclusion is the sight of all those AnthroPCs all lined up on display. That was some uncomfortable imagery.

Anyway, yeah, its clear that Marigold doesn't consider herself to be the "owner" of Momo either. Else that whole thing about Momo "paying her back for the chassis" would be really weird. I mean, I don't expect my laptop to compensate me for upgrading its RAM or whatever. It was also clear that Marten didn't expect to be compensated by Pintsize when he was upgraded either. Also, is it a crime to upgrade an AnthroPC against their will? Like if you took an AI that was perfectly comfortable being a toaster and forced it into a full-size chassis? Would that be the equivalent of torture? Would people have to invent new terminology for something like that?

What I'm trying to say is: "Stuff be complicated, yo..."

[Method of Madness]

I miss BSG.....

I thought I would, then they had that horrendous ending...but that's for ENJOY.

[Y]

Also, is it a crime to upgrade an AnthroPC against their will? Like if you took an AI that was perfectly comfortable being a toaster and forced it into a full-size chassis? Would that be the equivalent of torture? Would people have to invent new terminology for something like that?

It's probably the same as performing a sex change operation on someone who didn't want one. Also it makes me wonder if some AIs are programmed to like what they are, like toaster ones. Or that some are unhappy in their current designation/chasis and rather want to be in a AI of nuclear submarine. It might be unethical to deny their 'operation'.

[Is it cold in here?]

And judging by the last name, she's Japanese.

More than that, her name's a straight shout-out to the author of Azumanga Daioh, which is one of Jeph's big influences.

I'm a little surprised by Jeph's saying that the questions are really offensive, though.  They seem a little naive, bordering on tactless, but really no different from the sort of questions that form part of small-talk in our universe.

In the context of a long difficult civil rights struggle (probably still going on, because those things don't get settled in just one lifetime), naive and tactless become offensive. Didn't Jeph say the word "owner" has now become politically incorrect?

Asking Momo why she isn't a toaster might be like asking an African-American doctor why she isn't in a minstrel show. Being a CS major does not prevent prejudice, or more charitably, failure to internalize recent social changes.

Hmm: if you pay a fee to a matchmaker, that doesn't mean you're buying a spouse. (Though Exar-Kun's point still holds. I would be seriously creeped out by a matchmaker with a line of prospects sitting on a shelf). If your laptop is free to walk away at any time, you don't own it, which means the transaction which brought it into your home or office was not a purchase. If you don't own it, then you don't own improvements to it, and wouldn't be expected to pay for them.

There was a scene in the LANPark where one of the AnthroPCs had been modded without his permission. That would presumably be illegal today.

[Method of Madness]

Asking Momo why she isn't a toaster might be like asking an African-American doctor why she isn't in a minstrel show.

I couldn't disagree more, considering she's saying she'd want to be a toaster. I'd say it's more asking a doctor why they're a doctor and not whatever your dream job is.  Odd, sure, but not prejudiced.

[Is it cold in here?]

Ah. Good point. We shouldn't interpret Emily in normal terms.

[Y]

... Didn't Jeph say the word "owner" has now become politically incorrect?
...
There was a scene in the LANPark where one of the AnthroPCs had been modded without his permission. That would presumably be illegal today.

It happened twice in with the neckbeard one, and the one with the chasis window, seem it's also fine to use the O-word among themselves. Further O-word usages among themselves and to humans:  123, 234, 347, 428, 668

By others: hanners,  marten

[Skewbrow]

Hmm. Momo's own perception of her relation with Marigold has changed over the course of the comic. In 1298 she was still talking about "my owner's interests". Granted, she was just reciting a Sony ad text at that time and had just moved in to live with Marigold, but even so...

[Is it cold in here?]

668 is a great catch. It was clearly before the AIERA but shows that the topic was under discussion.

"My AnthroPC" doesn't necessarily imply ownership: consider "my husband", "my country", "my God".

[Pilchard123]

Somewhat related (not TVTropes links, don't worry):

http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,27713.0.html - AI Rights thread

[Method of Madness]

Granted, she was just reciting a Sony ad text at that time and had just moved in to live with Marigold, but even so...

You know, I hadn't even considered that she'd just moved in with Marigold, I assumed Marbear had just moved into that apartment and that she'd had Momo for years.

[Exar_Kun]

There was something else that I was wondering, and thank you to Skewbrow for reminding me of it. Momo was expressly made by Sony. Sony does not strike me as a company to make AI just for the hell of it. They presumably started making AI to sell to people, which means that somewhere down the line, Sony made money FROM CREATING A THINKING BEING. Now maybe I'm just being a prude or misunderstanding the situation in a critical way, but that strikes me as being pretty unethical. Sure, other fictional universes have AI being created for profit (Tyrell Corp. and Weyland-Yutani, just off the top of my head), but those were clearly dystopian futures whereas QC is clearly not.

So I'm wondering how the AIERA affected the creation of AI? Are only AI allowed to create other AI now? I honestly can't see how anyone would be able to create AI for profit with the AIERA in place, as the underlying assumption on creating AI for profit is that they are indeed property.

[Mothykins]

There was something else that I was wondering, and thank you to Skewbrow for reminding me of it. Momo was expressly made by Sony. Sony does not strike me as a company to make AI just for the hell of it. They presumably started making AI to sell to people, which means that somewhere down the line, Sony made money FROM CREATING A THINKING BEING. Now maybe I'm just being a prude or misunderstanding the situation in a critical way, but that strikes me as being pretty unethical. Sure, other fictional universes have AI being created for profit (Tyrell Corp. and Weyland-Yutani, just off the top of my head), but those were clearly dystopian futures whereas QC is clearly not.

So I'm wondering how the AIERA affected the creation of AI? Are only AI allowed to create other AI now? I honestly can't see how anyone would be able to create AI for profit with the AIERA in place, as the underlying assumption on creating AI for profit is that they are indeed property.

AI making more AI? This can only mean one thing...

D'AAAW ADORABUL WITTLE AI BABBIES~~~

[Y]

AI making more AI? This can only mean one thing...

D'AAAW ADORABUL WITTLE AI BABBIES~~~

Would that be like when Bender and the Slurm dispenser made a robot baby? So the robot/anthropc DNA of both AIs get combined to form offspring.

[pwhodges]

I'm picturing the Puppet Master + Kusanagi.

[Method of Madness]

You created me, Mom, so I guess you're to blame
for the love that I feel just from hearing your name.
You're as tender as corned beef and warm as pastrami.
(do do do do do) I love my mommy!

That being said, I'm pretty sure the only reason the QCverse isn't a dystopia is because the post-singularity AI decided they like humans. It could've gone either way, really.

[cesariojpn]

I'm picturing the Puppet Master + Kusanagi.

Waitwaitwait,

(click to show/hide)

IIRC, the end "result" of the merge with the Major and 2501 is the Ghost of both of them in a lolita body. I figured Major/2501 was waxing poetically over how both of their "ghosts" combined and that it was a new change in technology. A bio-organic mind combined with a AI.

[Madmartigan]

Oh, Emily, you'd make toast fun.

She's made some hot, buttery delicious toast.

She makes Hanners seem normal.

[Truec]

Hmm. Momo's own perception of her relation with Marigold has changed over the course of the comic. In 1298 she was still talking about "my owner's interests". Granted, she was just reciting a Sony ad text at that time and had just moved in to live with Marigold, but even so...

Pretty sure that Momo referred to Marigold as her owner in the same story arc Marigold was introduced in as well.  And I'm half certain she's done it more recently than that.

Are we certain comic history isn't being retconned just to screw with us?

[ponderch3rry]

The story feels a tad stretched at the moment to me. We get a glimpse here and there of the main characters, but it has been the minor, new characters that have kind of been stealing most of the spotlight lately. I want to see how Faye is dealing with being in a solid relationship with Angus, I want to see how Steve dealt with Cosette after that outburst in the coffee/bake house, I want to hear the diatribes of Martins inner thoughts and damn it, I want Pint-size to do some messed-up-shit!

Maybe it's just because reading a comic a day gives me a detachment to the main storyline and I need to go read 10 in a row to get a better feel for it, but I'm just not getting any kind of solid flow at the moment and haven't since the space-arch.

Either way, I still enjoy these new characters because they are quirky and I definitely look forward to hearing more of their crazy dialogue!

[jwhouk]

So many options... What are you looking forward to?

More Marigold Awkward Sex Talk!    5 (7.9%)
More Claire/Clinton Fighting!    3 (4.8%)
Hannelore Draws Moar Kittehs!    7 (11.1%)
Marten Is Amused!    8 (12.7%)
Faye and Angus - The Beginning of The End!    3 (4.8%)
Dora/Tai - The Next Day!    14 (22.2%) <== What we wanted
Emily and Gabby do something weird!    10 (15.9%) <== What actually happened
Another New Meme Attempt!    4 (6.3%)
An Old Meme Returns! (Waffles! Spathe Ham! LASERS!)    1 (1.6%)
Hitting the F5 key repeatedly to see if Jeph's updated the strip yet!    8 (12.7%)

Total Members Voted: 63

[Method of Madness]

Are we certain comic history isn't being retconned just to screw with us?

I don't think we can ever be certain of that.

[sitnspin]

I'm picturing the Puppet Master + Kusanagi.

Waitwaitwait,

(click to show/hide)

IIRC, the end "result" of the merge with the Major and 2501 is the Ghost of both of them in a lolita body. I figured Major/2501 was waxing poetically over how both of their "ghosts" combined and that it was a new change in technology. A bio-organic mind combined with a AI.

(click to show/hide)

No, that was just the only body Batou could find on short notice. The body was just a shell, hence the title. The merged consciousness spread through out the entire net. The Puppet Master had a ghost which proved that an organic brain was not necessary for generating a ghost as was originally thought. It was one of the many existential points brought up in the film/manga. As she became more and more machine, leaving only portions of her original brain matter, the Major began to doubt her own humanity. The Puppet Master showed that her humanity, represented most concretely by her ghost, was not dependent upon her body at all, opening up the question of what DOES it mean to be a conscious being then?

Mind you I have not read or watched it in years, so I might be a little off on details.

[TheEvilDog]

On one hand, I liked Emily when Jeph introduced her into the comic. Her off-kilter comments seemed to take away from Claire's abrasiveness and offered a sort of child-like innocence that we don't really see anymore.

On the other hand, it is a little disconcerting to see someone of Emily's age, intelligence and area of expertise acting in such a way to Momo. As was discussed before, her actions towards Momo could be construed as harassment. It could be that because we can't hear Emily's tone and inflections and we might be misinterperating what she is saying, but at the same time the first two panels don't sit quite right with me, in particular Momo's line in the first panel and Emily's response. It just seems like, I'm not quite sure how to put this, like Emily has some deep rooted beliefs, despite the fact that as a Computer Science graduate, she would have some experience with Computer-Human relations.

I'm kind of hoping that this is just Emily adjusting to a world post-Singularity, but at the same time seeing this kind of leaves me feeling somewhat off.

[Is it cold in here?]

There was something else that I was wondering, and thank you to Skewbrow for reminding me of it. Momo was expressly made by Sony. Sony does not strike me as a company to make AI just for the hell of it. They presumably started making AI to sell to people, which means that somewhere down the line, Sony made money FROM CREATING A THINKING BEING. Now maybe I'm just being a prude or misunderstanding the situation in a critical way, but that strikes me as being pretty unethical. Sure, other fictional universes have AI being created for profit (Tyrell Corp. and Weyland-Yutani, just off the top of my head), but those were clearly dystopian futures whereas QC is clearly not.

So I'm wondering how the AIERA affected the creation of AI? Are only AI allowed to create other AI now? I honestly can't see how anyone would be able to create AI for profit with the AIERA in place, as the underlying assumption on creating AI for profit is that they are indeed property.

Insightful again.

What if Sony's business model is selling bodies into which you can load the companion AnthroPC you've adopted? But who runs the creche if Sony doesn't?

[Carl-E]

Someone earlier in the thread wondered about Marten's purchase of Pintsize - I think it was posited (probably in another thread, definitely not in-comic) that Pintsize may well have been a gift from one of his parents (or another relative) either when he went to college or moved east.  Maybe they knew he'd need a friend since Vickie was so obviously not into him anymore (well, obvious to everyone but him, of course...)

[Skewbrow]

Momo was expressly made by Sony. Sony does not strike me as a company to make AI just for the hell of it. They presumably started making AI to sell to people, which means that somewhere down the line, Sony made money FROM CREATING A THINKING BEING.

Another possibility occurred to me. May be Sony just made the Momo ver1.0 chassis? And her AI came from whatever creche is creating them? The relation of the AI and the chassis it occupies is certainly looser than in the case with carbon based intelligence.

[Is it cold in here?]

A number of things would be explained if Pintsize were a hand-me-down from Veronica Vance, though in that case I'd expect him to have learned to be better behaved.

Also she could probably afford a better model.

[Carl-E]

She was an early adapter.  He's what, a 286? 

[pwhodges]

I'm picturing the Puppet Master + Kusanagi.

Waitwaitwait,

(click to show/hide)

IIRC, the end "result" of the merge with the Major and 2501 is the Ghost of both of them in a lolita body. I figured Major/2501 was waxing poetically over how both of their "ghosts" combined and that it was a new change in technology. A bio-organic mind combined with a AI.

(click to show/hide)

No, that was just the only body Batou could find on short notice. The body was just a shell, hence the title. The merged consciousness spread through out the entire net. The Puppet Master had a ghost which proved that an organic brain was not necessary for generating a ghost as was originally thought. It was one of the many existential points brought up in the film/manga. As she became more and more machine, leaving only portions of her original brain matter, the Major began to doubt her own humanity. The Puppet Master showed that her humanity, represented most concretely by her ghost, was not dependent upon her body at all, opening up the question of what DOES it mean to be a conscious being then?

Mind you I have not read or watched it in years, so I might be a little off on details.

Quite right.  But then, one mind/soul/ghost having lost its biological basis, and the other having come into being without any, they are lacking the sexual means to create the variety and change which is necessary to life, avoiding the death which follows from stagnation (and maybe over-specialisation) as the Puppet Master says.  So instead they merge within the net - which is why I mentioned it, rather cryptically, as a counter to:

D'AAAW ADORABUL WITTLE AI BABBIES~~~

PS: Anyone who is mystified by this turn of conversation should go and watch The Ghost in the Shell.

[no one special]

You forgot about Winslow.

It was late, and I only needed one example.

Jeph's comment further implies that sufficient time has passed (since ratification) for Emily to understand that questions of ownership and function (i.e. purpose) should be considered highly insulting.

But why should they be?  This is surely no different to us asking people about their jobs and partnership status, which, as I said before, is typical of party small-talk.

I agree with you,  I didn't think it was insulting at all.  But Jeph thinks it is, so therefore it is.  I must accept it.

Anyway, yeah, its clear that Marigold doesn't consider herself to be the "owner" of Momo either. Else that whole thing about Momo "paying her back for the chassis" would be really weird. I mean, I don't expect my laptop to compensate me for upgrading its RAM or whatever.

Well, the analogy doesn't quite fly.  Note that everyone who owns/is contracted with an AnthroPC also has their own computer.  So AnthroPC's serve a completely different emotional purpose than regular computers.  If your laptop was your friend and would feel better if he/she paid you back, then you might feel differently.  Also, Marigold wasn't planning to spend nearly that much for a new chassis - so in exchange for going so far out of her price range, Marigold agreed to let Momo pay her back.  It'd probably be more equitable if Momo only paid back the difference the actual price and what Marigold was planning to spend... but who knows how that'll play out.

[pwhodges]

So AnthroPC's serve a completely different emotional purpose than regular computers.

This is not entirely clear-cut.  Marten uses his computer to back up Pintsize; but when he is starting his music blog (Yelling about Music), he dictates into Pintsize, not the computer.

[Pilchard123]

Is that not somewhat like the role of a secretary? Dunno where I was going with that, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

EDIT: Marten actually types his blog and Pintsize reads it back, not the other way around.

[DSL]

Well, Momo 'splains it, though that'll just provide more meat for the forum dissection table.

Of course, Panel 3 still doesn't explain Pintsize.

[Soulsynger]

So... wait... AI 101 isn't SUPPOSED to be about watching cat gifs? My mind...

[Throg]

That iPod-like device that Momo's plugging into her ear makes me wonder about AI's. Was she listening to music? Downloading a portion of the library catalog for her job? Uploading surveillance information on human interactions to the mothership?

At any rate, I'm guessing that human consciousness is actually so taxing for AI's to replicate that the vastly superior computing power is only just able to keep up. Otherwise, you've got a little creature like Pintsize actually only devoting a small portion of its mind to wacky hijinks, while the other 80% of his consciousness is doing...god knows what. 

[Somebody]

Of course, Panel 3 still doesn't explain Pintsize.

Nothing explains Pintsize.

Pintsize Is.

[Veloso]

I had to go straight to this thread after today's comic, and I'm glad a lot of you are calling the same things I'm seeing here.

Emily's flightiness is stretched pretty far beyond anything reasonably credible, even by QC rules.  And, as you guys point out, the rules of the universe are being rewritten, and now terms like "owner" are badly politically incorrect.  It looks like Emily's flightiness is so she can ask offensive questions everyone should already know the answer to, so that Moma can go into exposition mode.  Yikes.  I'll be glad when this is over.

[pwhodges]

the rules of the universe are being rewritten, and now terms like "owner" are badly politically incorrect.

The problem that leads to the differing points of view in the forum is that the QC world has undergone fundamental changes in the relationship between humans and AIs as Jeph has explored this interest of his more deeply.  As the time represented in the whole of QC is no more than about two years, this means either that the situation in the QC universe has only just changed - in which case Emily falling into old habits of speaking is not surprising - or that the current QC universe is not the same as that represented in the earlier comics - in which case confusion among the readers is not surprising.

[techkid]

That iPod-like device that Momo's plugging into her ear makes me wonder about AI's. Was she listening to music? Downloading a portion of the library catalog for her job? Uploading surveillance information on human interactions to the mothership?

At any rate, I'm guessing that human consciousness is actually so taxing for AI's to replicate that the vastly superior computing power is only just able to keep up. Otherwise, you've got a little creature like Pintsize actually only devoting a small portion of its mind to wacky hijinks, while the other 80% of his consciousness is doing...god knows what.

I guess one question to ask in response to this is, what sort of processing power do AnthroPCs have? The sorts of AI being displayed here is mind-bogglingly complex (yes, even Pintsize), and depending on how "recent" AI advances are in the QCverse, it would take a buttload of processing power, RAM and storage space to contain and manage it.

Chances are good that Momo could be probably updating her music library (it doesn't take much to run a music player, after all, and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to the imagination that they would have a "personal mode" built into their software (where one can run music or movies or whatever for their own personal enjoyment (VERY useful in a library environment))). 350 songs is about 2.5GB, and here and now we have storage space measured in terabytes (1024GB). It would be reasonable to assume that they would have more than enough space for multimedia and web surfing (they are companion AnthroPCs, and what anyone and just about everyone ends up doing with their computer IRL is either going online, listening to music or both at the same time).

[judemorrigan]

Granted, she was just reciting a Sony ad text at that time and had just moved in to live with Marigold, but even so...

You know, I hadn't even considered that she'd just moved in with Marigold, I assumed Marbear had just moved into that apartment and that she'd had Momo for years.

For what it's worth, at the time of her chassis upgrade, Momo was 2.7 years old.  (See strips 1995 and 2009) 

[jmucchiello]

I spent AI 101 looking at cat gifs.

First sensible thing Emily's ever said.