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Kerbal Space Program? Anyone?

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cesium133:
"Incredibly deep and overly complicated sim" is truly the highest form of computer game.

edit -- my attempts to improve my launcher have led to disastrous, but AWESOME results:


...don't worry, I used a Stayputnik, so no kerbonauts died in the creation of this screenshot.

de_la_Nae:
I suspect that one of the reasons the overly-complicated sim and its cousin the fuck-up-more-than-once-or-twice-and-you're-dead game have garnered such a following as they have is a response to the mainstream success of many games that have went the other way, simplifying complicated actions rather strongly. Like the Batman: Arkham games, which are still challenging, but really easy to be visually and cinematically satisfying.

Of course that particular trend appears to have developed partially because of how frikkin' hard and complicated and sometimes disastrously-complicated games previous (see many Japanese RPGs, several of the 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons property games, etc.).

I wonder how the pendulum will swing next? As many barriers still exist, it does seem like there are a lot more markets to exploit and resources for game production. Might be that instead of the big companies swinging back towards complexity (a la Dwarf Fortress), they'll continue making streamlined games (a la Call of Duty) and leave the self-disastrously fun games to the smaller outfits. Like they've sort of been doing I guess.

ackblom12:
To be honest, a lot of the difficulty of the older games was largely in what I think we can call, in hindsight, piss poor game mechanics due to just how early in the medium's life it was. On the other hand, the rest of it I feel like was a total disinterest in anything resembling game balance. This part I don't actually think is a terrible thing. It leads to a lot of interesting design choices and allows for a lot of throwing things at the wall to see what sticks, which can lead to some really fun stuff.

I mean, really think about "difficult" games from the 90's. Let's say the Baldur's Gate series for example. What made those games hard was a bunch of really bullshit game mechanics like character gibbing and save vs. death effects. It didn't really have a lot to do with character skill really. Or something like Ninja Gaiden, with extremely cheap enemy placement that required more memorization of the level layout than actual player skill. Now if you look at some of the difficult games of today, such as Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dwarf Fortress, higher difficulty Batman: Arkham Asylum and Arkham City and the like, if you die or fail your objective it's probably because you fucked up. This is a difficulty path that I'm a-ok with continuing in some fashion.

snalin:
Baldurs Gate also is a great example on how much such poorly thought through game mechanics can lead to the game easily being broken the other way around - too easy - if you just do the right things. Build up some money in BG1 and get some storm or fire-giant strength potions, and hard bosses fall like leaves. If you know your builds, some of the Final Fantasies are also crazily broken. "Old school" game design were weird at times.

About game companies making that complex games; Dwarf Fortress being an amazing game is all thanks to Toady One, it being any popular at all is exclusively the work of his fan base creating tools, graphic packs and guides to make it accessible enough to be playable. I don't think Dwarf Fortress, Stone Soup, Kerbal or any of the other crazily complex games would be anywhere without a strong fan base pushing them forward. Big Companies can't really risk their success on the fan base bothering to make toolsets and tutorials to make their games accessible. With kickstarter we will be seeing more games that are more complex than any publisher would dare to release, but the DFs will be few and far between.

ackblom12:
All I'm saying is I'm kind of cautiously eager for the new industry collapse. I don't think it's going to have of an affect on my gaming or the main developers I really follow.

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