Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT: 2500-2504 (29 July- August 2, 2013) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread
Method of Madness:
Start from the beginning, read as much as you can, but please don't talk about the matter until you do. There's really no way we could answer your question better than that thread could. For that matter, the thread will let you know how misguided the question itself is.
wiserd:
--- Quote from: Method of Madness on 06 Aug 2013, 19:05 ---Start from the beginning, read as much as you can, but please don't talk about the matter until you do. There's really no way we could answer your question better than that thread could. For that matter, the thread will let you know how misguided the question itself is.
--- End quote ---
I read 2 pages. Nothing was particularly new and the text wasn't at all information dense. I saw the notion of strong vs. weak associations with gender identity brought up a few times, but never really brought to much of a conclusion except that 'people are different.' Okay, sure. But that says nothing about average tendencies. If there's something specific you want me to see, please post the specific text and I'll happily read it. In the meantime, I'm going to go back to having as much of an opinion as anyone else on this forum. And if that's unreasonable somehow, by all means, feel free to explain why. "Don't have an opinion till you've read the phone book" isn't something most folks would go for.
Best
Valdís:
--- Quote from: wiserd on 06 Aug 2013, 16:15 ---The notion of trans-sexuality itself asserts that sex is relevant to either cultural interactions or personal identity. Otherwise, why would someone undergo surgery to become transsexual in spite of the associated stigma?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: wiserd on 06 Aug 2013, 18:14 ---Fairly put. I misspoke. I should have said something along the lines of "Why would someone undergo gender reassignment surgery."
--- End quote ---
1) We are not a damn "notion", nor are we a political statement on gender roles. Stop treating us as such.
2) Sex is irrelevant. Surgery is irrelevant. Hormones are irrelevant. Being correctly read as female is irrelevant. I am a woman. I do not BUY my gender to meet the standards of others, I just am. Just like cis women.
3) Particular brain-mapping and structures associated with my gender do mean I feel better on correct hormones. The thoughts I have of surgery are largely as a result of damage done to me by testosterone poisoning in puberty etc., since those caused distinctive developments which my body would not have to endure if on the correct hormones from the start. In general it's a matter of making changes for a body you're more comfortable with as yourself.
This includes both people like me, who think about different genitalia quite a bit, and our siblings who decide it isn't for them. The latter can for example be because of not thinking it's good enough yet (personally I'd want buccal cells in use or such) or because it simply isn't part of their brain-mapping. If it isn't then it could be a big mistake to feel you have to do it anyway - and there is a lot of pressure on trans people to - since they're just women who happen to have penises or men who happen to have vaginas.
4) "Gender Reassignment Surgery" .. No. Just no. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender. It is genital reassignment. It only changes genitals. Which have nothing to do with what gender someone is. Nor are they some totality of "Sex", which is why I also oppose the use of 'SRS'. Especially with how shitty that non-distinction gets for non-Anglosphere people. We also don't "become" trans through surgery. We are.
5) "Cultural interactions" <- What is that even supposed to mean? It's due to our internal sense of self. Aside from those physical aspects of our own bodies to deal with the societal stuff is inflicted upon us. It is that "associated stigma" you mentioned. The systemic cissexism and cis supremacist attitudes, as well as internalizing them on our part. I'm not ashamed of being trans. It isn't something to be ashamed of. The very notion that it would be reeks of those very attitudes and I will have no part in it.
Sure, when someone misgenders me it hurts and it's something I'd seek to not have happen, but that doesn't mean conforming to any cisgender standards I would not personally feel comfortable with in the first place. Seeking approval from shitty cis people who don't respect me for who I am and want me to successfully "Hide away" my trans-ness is not something I am at all interested in.
There's a reason I said this earlier:
--- Quote from: Valdís on 06 Aug 2013, 15:57 ---
--- Quote from: Akima on 06 Aug 2013, 15:45 ---I am good at maths. From time to time, when I demonstrate this, I get patronising sexist jokes about having a "boy brain" (because "girls suck at maths, amirite?"). The tone of such jokes is often patronisingly positive, as if I should be grateful for being "upgraded" to the status of an honorary man. I am not a boy, so I can't have a boy-brain. I am a woman, so nothing I do can be unfeminine. Some of the things I do might not fit some stereotyped, sexist models of femininity, but that reflects on the models, and the people who adopt them, not on me.
--- End quote ---
"Cis folks - If you think "passing" is the highest compliment, if you think "I would have never known" are words of praise, I have news."
Yeah, it can be pretty sick how non-marginalized people think of others.
--- End quote ---
Saying I don't look "trans" is not a compliment. All it tells me is that the person has a fucked up denigrating view of what it means to be trans and that they think it's good to be invisible among cis people. On the other hand if they're non-shitty people, then saying it because I'd be a lot safer for not being easily visually identified as the group with the highest murder-victim rate around, which isn't so much complimenting me as it is pointing out how awful most people are and how I can't feel safe being myself.
It's nicer when people just say I'm pretty and leave it at that. :laugh:
Is it cold in here?:
Did people hear wiserd as meaning "She's so unladylike she can't be a REAL woman"?
(moderator)
People are doing a good job at arguing without getting personal. Please keep it that way.
(/moderator)
Akima:
--- Quote from: wiserd on 06 Aug 2013, 16:34 ---But from a strictly theoretical standpoint I truly don't see why one (or a constellation) of your abilities couldn't possibly be unusual for women but common for men.
--- End quote ---
Even if that were true, it would still not make me a man, or reflect on my femininity except in other people's heads, and it certainly would not justify saying "Is it just me, or does Akima really not seem female?". That is the attitude of the "boy-brain" jokers. Regardless of disclaimers, there really isn't a good, or even neutral, way to tell any woman that she doesn't "seem female" based on anything about her, and I'm at a bit of a loss to understand any good reason for doing so.
I would argue that if a woman doesn't fit some model of "what women are", it reflects on the model, not on the woman. If the mismatch leads people to question the woman's status as a woman, it reflects on them, not on the woman. You appeal to the "predictive power" of your model, but I would ask why anyone needs a predictive model of what men and women are "really like" in any context other than biological or medical. Why do the "boy-brain" jokers need to predict my mathematical ability based on my sex? Why mention my sex at all, or deny my femaleness, when it is their model, and not I, that proved inadequate? Unless they are Eve-baiting sexist douchebags, that is.
--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 06 Aug 2013, 20:36 ---Did people hear wiserd as meaning "She's so unladylike she can't be a REAL woman"?
--- End quote ---
Something along those lines, certainly. I am not sure what other conclusion I might have been expected to draw. As I have pointed out above, it is no different from saying "Akima is so good at maths, she can't be a REAL woman".
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