Topic: WCDT: 2711-2715 (26 - 30 May 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread (Read 57760 times)

T · « **Reply #250 on:** 30 May 2014, 20:55 »

Quote from: Ben on 30 May 2014, 20:50

- a REAL girl of her appearance wouldn't be allowed in bars, fir one thing - but still sufficiently anime-esque to appeal to Marigold, who is very immature herself. May's first reaction to Momo is "great, more anime" after all.

But she was mistaken for a human before so I guess she looks like a regular kid. If she have an Asian face them she looks like an adult Asian girl.

Ben · « **Reply #251 on:** 30 May 2014, 21:08 »

Momo doesn't have an Asian face. She also has pink eyes and hair and probably her inner mouth as well. Padma is clearly South Asian, Tai is "generically beige" and there are others; if Momo looked East Asian it would be apparent.

No, she is carefully generic. Sam accepts her as human-equivalent in practical terms, but kids that age would. Marigold is described as an immature character who spends much if her time in a fantasy world anyway and lacks the ability to distinguish, at times. Momo's quiet, serious character is well suited to Marigold. She walks into bars looking as she does because she clearly isn't human on examination. Marten is a self-pitying, gutless tosser and having Pintsize mock him is no more than he deserves. Faye and Dora don't have AnthroPC because they are too grounded in reality to feel the need, or accept them.

I'd suspect that in a live-action or theatrical-animation interpretation, the AIs would be CGI rendered among human actors.

T · « **Reply #252 on:** 30 May 2014, 21:18 »

Personally I think Momo should look like a girl with dyed hair and pink contacts. It is not just about accepting but also about not realizing she is a robot. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2012

Zwammy · « **Reply #253 on:** 30 May 2014, 21:52 »

Quote from: Ben on 30 May 2014, 21:08

Sam accepts her as human-equivalent in practical terms, but kids that age would.

Speaking of which, Sam and Momo don't seem to be hanging out much now. Momo seems to be settling into a more mature outlook now that the "New Chassis Euphoria" has passed - no more snake and frog adventures?

Ben · « **Reply #254 on:** 30 May 2014, 22:53 »

I don't think Momo and Sam ever did "hang out", just that they were thrown together at a time when Momo was still finding her feet. Sam clearly doesn't wander about independently.

It's stated on various occasions that AnthroAIs (for want if a better term, to distinguish them from sentient fork trucks or obvious AIs like Pintsize) are more-or-less human in appearance but easily distinguished on closer inspection. Momo intermittently shows an articulation seam around the neck, but looks pretty much like a girl with pink hair and eyes; but the other ones don't.

Sam wouldn't care in-context because children can be very accepting and Momo would be a new, exciting acquaintance. The older characters treat her as more-or-less human (Faye clearly doesn't, for example, by looking under Momo-tan's skirt out of curiosity, throwing Momo-tan in the air and being openly dismissive of holo-May's details, without knowing May's views on the issue) because that's the background scenario.

This is just another convention to allow the plot to progress; after all, Dave Bowman treats HAL as a crew-member although he is well aware that HAL is an AI, and Starfleet crew treat Data and The Doctor as crew although they are well-known not to be human. Arnold Rimmer gets "upgraded" to "hard light" because the plot requires it.

But how "human" does Momo really appear? Good question. As far as can be determined, AnthroAIs have visible articulation seams unless covered by a synthetic skin. This seems to define them as having rigid, or semi-rigid exoskeletons - clearly they can articulate their faces, because (again) the plot requires it, or the artist finds it useful. On that basis, they presumably move like Buzz Lightyear, rather than Arnie the Terminator. We don't know how they actually speak; I suspect they look like the on-screen robots in "I, Robot" when they speak. I don't know what Momo's voice sounds like but I suspect her formal speech patterns sound rather like an automated on-line answering service.

All in all I'd say they are sufficiently "different" to enable them to keep out if the Uncanny Valley

ankhtahr · « **Reply #255 on:** 30 May 2014, 22:55 »

They look human enough for Sam to have mistaken for a human in the secret bakery.

KOK · « **Reply #256 on:** 30 May 2014, 23:37 »

Quote from: Ben on 30 May 2014, 18:24

Dale works various crappy part-time jobs yet rents an apartment, owns a car, and contributes to his mothers' costs.

May asks him how he can afford the glasses. He answers that he works a bunch of jobs. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2496 I take that to mean that he is working more than full time.

Ben · « **Reply #257 on:** 31 May 2014, 00:12 »

There's a general convention in slice-of-life comics that characters live beyond their means with no apparent problems. It isn't anything new or unique; Homer Simpson does it, so did Dagwood Bumstead in the 1940s and it wasn't new then. Friends IS this, in spades.

The only time money really appears is when it is a joke or plot point (the exaggerated poverty of Dogpatch and Lower Slobbovia in Li'l Abner, for example) . Sometimes it is averted, when it is necessary - Marten's new guitar would be a case in point.

But generally, characters have sufficient income to drive the plot without spending enough time over it to hold things up.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #258 on:** 31 May 2014, 00:45 »

Jeph said, in some Q&A that I'm too lazy to look up, that the standard human/AI companionship contract requires doing "nothing creepy".

Ben · « **Reply #259 on:** 31 May 2014, 01:09 »

Ok, if you know anything involving live eels that you would take your mother to, let's hear it....

~~Schmorgluck~~ · « **Reply #260 on:** 31 May 2014, 02:32 »

They are pretty when they swim.

Ben · « **Reply #261 on:** 31 May 2014, 02:43 »

Actually my old mum liked jellied eels...

bhtooefr · « **Reply #262 on:** 31 May 2014, 02:44 »

Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 31 May 2014, 00:45

Jeph said, in some Q&A that I'm too lazy to look up, that the standard human/AI companionship contract requires doing "nothing creepy".

From both parties?

Thrillho · « **Reply #263 on:** 31 May 2014, 02:46 »

If AIs can have any chassis they choose, and can also have relationships with humans, doesn't that raise some worrying questions when the chassis can look like a 12-year-old anime girl?

bhtooefr · « **Reply #264 on:** 31 May 2014, 03:09 »

And there's adult women of that build, too. Doesn't that raise some worrying questions if they have relationships with adult humans?

(Granted, usually facial structures don't look 12 in that case, but still. And, Australia tried to classify porn of small-breasted women as child porn even if they were clearly adults, so that's not an entirely facetious question...)

Thrillho · « **Reply #265 on:** 31 May 2014, 03:10 »

There is a difference between 'petite woman' and 'robot with chassis designed to look like 12-year-old girl.'

bhtooefr · « **Reply #266 on:** 31 May 2014, 03:16 »

Also, the concern with underage relationships is mental/emotional maturity, education, and life experience, not the physical traits.

Granted, you could make an argument regarding sexualization of traits commonly associated with pre-teen girls, and that is worrying (and an AI that chooses such a chassis and then pursues relationships with adult humans would likely run into problems with pedophiles pursuing them), but if the chassis is inhabited by a mature AI, and the chassis was the AI's choice (rather than a companion's choice to satisfy a fetish or something similar), I'd have to argue that it's OK.

hedgie · « **Reply #267 on:** 31 May 2014, 03:23 »

In Momo's case, I think that her chassis choice was deliberate, since in a way she is like a young teen herself. Granted, she's mature in a lot of ways, certainly enough to handle all the Victorian pr0n at her job. But in a lot of other ways, especially her interactions with Sam, she still seems emotionally young. If her first chassis is child-Momo, this one is early teen Momo. In some time, she may trade in her current chassis and purchase a more "adult" one.

Ben · « **Reply #268 on:** 31 May 2014, 03:31 »

Well, yes. Momo is really TOO small to pass as a "petite European woman" and doesn't look Asian as far as can be seen. Sam appeared to identify her a tween-age or pre-teen girl.

That's why I said earlier that the whole issue was best avoided. Momo, for reasons best known to herself, wishes to be treated as "human" with a strong implication of "adult human" but sees fit to walk around in a very small chassis with pink hair arranged in a very juvenile style. I don't really want to analyse why anyone might pay $20,000-plus for the chassis she rejected.

I'd much rather go with the conclusion that an AnthroPC's "libido" is basically a misreading of something specifically PC-based, as demonstrated by Pintsize's "date" and conducted through the USB port at the base if their skulls. AnthroPCs aren't romantically interested in humans because it simply doesn't work that way, and the companionship contract gives them a get-out for any human deluded enough to think otherwise.

Let's be honest, the characters who own them are pretty sad. Marten mopes about with no idea of what he wants to do with his life; Marigold is just emerging from a game-obsessed shut-in with few social skills. Hanners is medicated up to the eyeballs. Tai probably employed Momo to be "bohemian". The more confident characters are passably polite (apart from Faye, who clearly regards them as gadgets) but most if them detest Pintsize for obvious reasons

T · « **Reply #269 on:** 31 May 2014, 03:44 »

Quote from: Gareth on 31 May 2014, 03:10

There is a difference between 'petite woman' and 'robot with chassis designed to look like 12-year-old girl.'

Actually there are adult woman who looks 12 or even younger, face included.

More common in Asia but there are some wester examples.

Ben · « **Reply #270 on:** 31 May 2014, 04:15 »

And your point would be what, exactly? Given the sample population, you could find examples of pretty much anything; 350lb NFL players, basketball players seven feet tall, women barely more than 4' tall, anything biologically feasible.

Momo is presumable aware of this. She walked straight past several chassis with quite "normal" features in the shop, and chose one that looks like an anime character with pink ponytails. She must have a reason.

pwhodges · « **Reply #271 on:** 31 May 2014, 04:31 »

Because Jeph likes Azumanga Daioh.

Ben · « **Reply #272 on:** 31 May 2014, 05:41 »

.....is that a fact, or speculation?

~~GarandMarine~~ · « **Reply #273 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:01 »

Quote from: pwhodges on 31 May 2014, 04:31

Because Jeph likes Azumanga Daioh.

A strong fact.

There's also the possibility of romantic interaction without sexual attraction or interaction. We know Momo HAS a libido because she fantasized briefly about Sven at one point but even disregarding that, all that romantic interaction REALLY requires is two intelligent, consenting beings with similar emotional patterns (Romance to you is not romance to the Ravenous Bug Bladder Beast of Trall). As asexual individuals prove, you can like, even love someone without a sex drive.

pwhodges · « **Reply #274 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:04 »

Known fact. http://jephjacques.com/post/6577196889/i-was-re-reading-azumanga-daioh-the-other-day-and

Also consider that the character Emily has the surname Azuma.

Ben · « **Reply #275 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:07 »

Quote from: pwhodges on 31 May 2014, 06:04

Known fact. Also consider that the character Emily has the surname Azuma.

Well, ok, I don't know any of that. I'm always puzzled by people being so enthusiastic about Japan. Good engineers but I've worked for them and I've been there, and I won't be doing either again anytime soon

jwhouk · « **Reply #276 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:08 »

Quote from: T on 30 May 2014, 19:59

Well, in this QC world there are robots with the mindset like Pintsize, and humans are, human.

So it is certain that not only there is a lot of robot/human romance but also a lot of robot/human sex and even porn.

This was speculated earlier in the comic. When Hannelore asked her dad about it, he got real quiet and changed the subject.

jwhouk · « **Reply #277 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:12 »

And our Moment of the Week?

Better than the maid outfit, but still not "pants". 0 (0%)
She just got out of robot jail, and that's the best he can say? 2 (5.6%)
You just SHOWED UP! And I'm KIND OF in the middle of something! 0 (0%)
Managed to seal the deal, huh? Nice. Fist bump. I got fists now. Bump 'em. 2 (5.6%)
Got a real physical body and everything! So, can I crash here? 0 (0%)
L-look, they got a halfway house, but it's like a ####in' broom closet. 0 (0%)
Find a job, not break any rules, see probation officer... Just gimme a chance. Please. 0 (0%)
You pay rent. You help clean. And if you do or say ANYTHING to hurt Marigold - 3 (8.3%)
Creating Nice_List.txt. Entering "Marigold." Saving and closing. 6 (16.7%)
Y-you can't let here stay HERE! (Stomp Stomp Stomp SLAM) 0 (0%)
Dammit May... I'll talk to her, I'll talk to her. 0 (0%)
IF YOU MAKE THIS ANY WORSE - 0 (0%)
NICE LIST DOT TEE EX TEE, ASSPLOW 9 (25%)
Look, if you're worried I'm gonna steal Dale from you, I promise that ain't gonna happen. Ugh. 0 (0%)
Why should I trust you? 0 (0%)
I'm the one who got him to talk to you that night you were freakin' out on him at your place. 0 (0%)
If it wasn't for me, you two would still be pretend-hating each other. 0 (0%)
I AM THE REASON YOU TWO ARE CURRENTLY BONING. (Okay! Okay!) 14 (38.9%)

Total Members Voted: 36

pwhodges · « **Reply #278 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:22 »

Quote from: Ben on 31 May 2014, 06:07

Well, ok, I don't know any of that.

Fair enough. Here's a better proof (note under the comic).

Ben · « **Reply #279 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:28 »

No arguing with that.

I've worked for Japanese construction companies like Nishimatsu, and offshore companies like NDC (Nihon Drilling Co) and I can only assume there's something in Japanese comics that doesn't show face-to-face. They are very polite, or at least formally correct, but you are an outsider to them and will never, ever be otherwise

pwhodges · « **Reply #280 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:41 »

My experience with working with the Japanese, including going there for some weeks to train them (I was selling to them, in this instance) is similar. But you wouldn't judge Western comics simply on the basis of dealing with Western businessmen, I guess.

Ben · « **Reply #281 on:** 31 May 2014, 06:44 »

Well, true again.

I just looked up Azamu on Wikipedia... Eeeewwww! I think I'll stick to Viz, thanks!

T · « **Reply #282 on:** 31 May 2014, 08:17 »

What is Azamu? You should have searched Azumanga Daioh. Personally I like Yotsuba more. I have lived and worked in Japan before but unlike you I liked it. Maybe because I'm from a shitty country so it is amazing to be in a place where things work.

Ben · « **Reply #283 on:** 31 May 2014, 08:32 »

That's the one, Azamu, Azumangu Daewoo, that's the one. That business about the dodgy schoolmaster was too much fir me, I'm afraid.

I certainly agree that things WORK in Japan. If I ever have to go through Narita again, it will be too soon, but I DID get my flight against all expectations. Plus, I DID get paid all three times, including end-of-contract bonus, which isn't as common as you might expect or wish. Can't fault 'em for that.

But culturally, I think I'll go with Abraham Lincoln, that people who like that kind of thing will find it is the sort of thing they like.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #284 on:** 31 May 2014, 10:11 »

Quote from: Ben on 31 May 2014, 06:28

but you are an outsider to them and will never, ever be otherwise

Perhaps you had bad experiences, but you're basically calling all of Japan racist (or at best, xenophobic).

Ben · « **Reply #285 on:** 31 May 2014, 10:17 »

Racist is a greatly over-used term. I prefer "culturally incompatible" in this context. Japan is a tightly closed society operating by entirely un-European rules, with highly developed concepts of obligation. That said, their distinctive physiognomy and unique language mean they have no difficulty at all with the concept of who is, or is not included within that society.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #286 on:** 31 May 2014, 10:18 »

How is excluding someone because of their background not racist?

Barmymoo · « **Reply #287 on:** 31 May 2014, 10:24 »

What exactly consitutes a "European rule"? You do realise there are European people with the "distinctive physiognomy" who can speak that "unique language"?

Mlle Germain · « **Reply #288 on:** 31 May 2014, 10:31 »

Oh my, I decided to quickly check out the comic thread before leaving the forum after a long discussion (partially) on xenophobia in the European Union thread just to see that part of the discussion seems to have leaked here...

Method of Madness · « **Reply #289 on:** 31 May 2014, 10:33 »

It was for you, MG. IT WAS ALL FOR YOU!

Ben · « **Reply #290 on:** 31 May 2014, 11:12 »

All I can suggest is that you go and get some face-to-face time with them, see how it all works.

FWIW, I have been told a number of times that working outside Japan, with non-Japanese can be a significant professional and social problem for Japanese. They are intensely conformist in ways Westerners really don't understand. From what I've seen, I really don't envy them the pressure they live and work under.

pwhodges · « **Reply #291 on:** 31 May 2014, 11:39 »

There is a lot wrong with Japanese society, both in terms of systematic racism and sexism; but further discussion of it in this thread would be off-topic.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #292 on:** 31 May 2014, 13:17 »

Jeph was asked once why a computer enthusiast like Dora doesn't have an AnthroPC. He said it's because she has a cat. At a guess he means that Mieville is meeting her needs for companionship. Of course he might also mean that cats and AnthroPCs are incompatible.

Are people who keep pets pathetic? AnthroPCs seem to fill the "non-human friend" emotional niche.

FunkyTuba · « **Reply #293 on:** 31 May 2014, 13:55 »

Quote from: FunkyTuba on 30 May 2014, 08:01

I think Marigold just realized that May is angling to be Dale's anthro-pc, not his girlfriend
Quote from: Schmorgluck on 30 May 2014, 09:23
Quote from: Barmymoo on 30 May 2014, 08:20
Honestly I think she's just angling to be his lodger! I doubt she would appreciate the implication that Dale owner her in any sense, but she needs a place to stay and isn't very good at expressing a desire to be friends.
Maybe Dale was the first person to put up with her antics in a stern but fair fashion? Also, I think "ownership" isn't quite a right term to use about AnthroPCs (or AIs) who go for the human companionship thing.

Sorry to go back a bit.... I think my comment started this fork in the conversation and I meant something a little deeper than what my words actually said.

When I said "angling to be Dale's anthro-pc" I meant that as shorthand for "trying to induce Dale to start a companionship contract with May which would in itself count a form of employment under Dale's conditions for staying with him in his apartment". I think she's got her own self-interest involved here. She saw previously that Marigold has some of the same points of vulnerability as Dale and together Marigold and Dale could be susceptible to a long con. I don't think it's quite a con game yet though Jeph might go there. Momo wouldn't have any of that, if she saw it, but we'll see how much she gets to know and when as this plays out.

Jeph stated a long time ago (in a newspost I think) that whenever he did comics about Pintsize and Winslow he invariably turned that story arc towards how the humans in the comic are affected by them. By ~~retconning~~"promoting" anthro-pcs to the AI-still-showing-us-what--they-are-now's Jeph created a way to involve them in society in a much richer way than before with many of the same opportunities (and liabilities) as humans. As retcons go I think this one has been of great benefit to QC.

~~Schmorgluck~~ · « **Reply #294 on:** 31 May 2014, 15:17 »

Quote from: Ben on 31 May 2014, 08:32

That's the one, Azamu, Azumangu Daewoo, that's the one.

Are you for real? With this single sentence you are claiming "HEY THERE I'M A TOTAL DUMMY!" Are you really aiming at passing as a total dummy? Because if so, you're 100% effective. No trace of intelligence can be found in that sentence. Zero. Right after being called out on a misspelling, going for even more misspelling, with an air of "ah well these foreign words all look the same".

Congratulation, you successfully dissuaded me from taking anything you'll ever say with a single hint of consideration.

Kugai · « **Reply #295 on:** 31 May 2014, 15:27 »

Either that or Ben was being sarcastic.

Loki · « **Reply #296 on:** 31 May 2014, 15:35 »

Quote from: DrBear on 29 May 2014, 20:18

So, who'd buy the "I AM THE REASON YOU TWO ARE BONING" t-shirt?

Oh, me, me, me!

(click to show/hide)

~~Schmorgluck~~ · « **Reply #297 on:** 31 May 2014, 16:18 »

Quote from: Kugai on 31 May 2014, 15:27

Either that or Ben was being sarcastic.

Well I have no respect for offhand sarcasm about "funny foreign things being undistinguishable" either, so it's ultimately irrelevant.

Zwammy · « **Reply #298 on:** 31 May 2014, 16:53 »

Quote from: Ben on 30 May 2014, 22:53

I don't think Momo and Sam ever did "hang out", just that they were thrown together at a time when Momo was still finding her feet. Sam clearly doesn't wander about independently.

This is when they met, but it's also the start of adventure time. Momo seemed to be hesitant at first but she got into the swing of things. Notice Momo said she found a new friend? Then there was Froglord, but not long after Tai corrupted Momo. Then... Sam met Faye. So Sam threw Momo over in favor of Faye, the fickle little ingrate. To be fair, Faye is much more interesting than Momo, even if Momo can blow the shoes off of a man with her self-defense capability.

~~cesariojpn~~ · « **Reply #299 on:** 31 May 2014, 17:10 »

Quote from: Ben on 30 May 2014, 18:24

Regarding robot/human relations, the chassis Momo rejected at Idoru was a highly anime-style girl in a school uniform.

It was a "knock off" of one of the main characters from Lucky Star.

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Author Topic: WCDT: 2711-2715 (26 - 30 May 2014) Weekly Comic Discussion Thread (Read 57760 times)