Fun Stuff > ENJOY
Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age)
JoeCovenant:
Jebus H Christos!
Talk about splitting your fan base down the middle.
(Nice to see our very own BenRG in the same kinda comment thread as I was posting.)
I honestly don't know why I read the comments page. If there is an extreme to be had, it seems to be LEAPED upon by the vocal majority, and any other dissenting voice hauled over the coals. (People already being called "That guy" for daring to say "Umm... hang on...")
So... here's my rant, cos I feel this is a far safer place to make it.
JOE IS NOT A FECKING RAPIST!!!
He's not an ENABLER. He's not an APOLOGIST. He's not a "Toxic Male" (I bloody hate that ridiculous phrase).
He's an immature, basically lonely guy, looking for solace in meaningless sexual encounters, with girls/women who are perfectly happy to indulge IN those sexual encounters.
He's an eighteen year old *bloke*, who hasn't yet passed beyond the maturity stage of 'rating girls out of ten' to the nth degree, and being especially silly to put that online.
He's also a comic character whose sole purpose is to be the BUTT OF JOKES AGAINST HIM!
But no... let's post essays as to why and how and what this comic character does, is offensive/dangerous/insensitive/your-favourite-trigger-here.
Let's describe his childish and frankly laughable webpage as a "Rapists playground" and "Information for abusers."
I mean, Glob knows, some (A LOT) of people on that page have had a HARD TIME in life, and I sympathise and empathise with them for that, but... man...
There's just 'a point' where you have to step back and say, "Maybe it's just ME putting all of these connotations onto comic characters? Maybe I'm feeding my own problems and looking for justification among the safety of the groupthink which has formed? Maybe this comic is... just... a bit of fun, which deals with relationships in a comedic fashion-which means using certain tropes and magnifications of actual human traits for comedic effect and... just maybe... it's not real that important in the real world..."
... y'know?
(there, i said it)
Neko_Ali:
Joe is emotionally immature and trying hard not to grow out of that. Unfortunately for him he's being forced to recognize that his actions do indeed matter and have real consequence. Both to himself and to others. I'm sure he figured that giving out donuts and giving an insincere 'sorry' to every woman on his list would have gotten him off the hook, but he's realizing it doesn't. Like Walky, he wants to be an adult for the good stuff (sex, mostly) but still be a kid when it comes to not having responsibility, not having to worry about anyone but himself and just being forgiven when he screws up. Also like Walky he's finding the adult world doesn't work like that and is getting squeezed out of that realm of privilege whether he likes it or not.
bhtooefr:
The point that those people are trying to make is that, even if Joe isn't a rapist, he's immersed in a culture of toxic masculinity (which is a particular sub-type of masculinity), that very much tries to trivialize rape.
He's part of the culture that attacks rape victims for "ruining their rapist's life", because it wasn't really rape, because she didn't say no (because she was so drunk that she couldn't say no). He's part of the culture that trivializes women, reducing their role to sex objects, and declaring them worthless if they're not having sex with people like him (this especially includes Joyce - see his rating her "zero minus" - even if he doesn't actually think she's worthless).
The people who are calling him out for being on the same path as Ryan and who are calling him out for being immersed in the culture of toxic masculinity aren't saying that he's a toxic male, they're pointing out that he's also a victim of toxic masculinity... but that he has a lot of victims as a result. Sure, it's nowhere near as bad as Ryan, but it is still a thing. And, they're even pointing out that he could grow out of this. In the mean time, though, he's still a threat to women on campus.
Welu:
I'll add to bhtooefr's post that Joe doesn't have to consciously believe or say some of the things said for those toxic aspects to be an understandable interpretation of Joe's character. The stuff Joe does say and do is enough to further perpetuate a harmful environment. It's at least more than able to be criticised because it reflects a lot of real world attitudes that plenty of people have encountered. Especially early Joe being as overt to say having sex with a virgin is "breaking them in" and he could "upgrade" them by doing so. Joe is an entertaining fictional character and I can see sometimes that he has a good heart, but if I knew someone like him in real life (and I have) then I would not want to be around them.
Plus let's not trivialise triggers. Let's not push the idea that people who've gone through traumas are looking for reasons to be upset and rant. This "bit of fun" comic deals with heavy topics like abuse, suicide and sexual assault. An attempted rape was the first big story event. It makes sense that people talk about those topics a lot in relation to the comic and their own experience.
JoeCovenant:
--- Quote from: bhtooefr on 15 Aug 2017, 08:18 ---The point that those people are trying to make is that, even if Joe isn't a rapist, he's immersed in a culture of toxic masculinity (which is a particular sub-type of masculinity), that very much tries to trivialize rape.
He's part of the culture that attacks rape victims for "ruining their rapist's life", because it wasn't really rape, because she didn't say no (because she was so drunk that she couldn't say no). He's part of the culture that trivializes women, reducing their role to sex objects, and declaring them worthless if they're not having sex with people like him (this especially includes Joyce - see his rating her "zero minus" - even if he doesn't actually think she's worthless).
The people who are calling him out for being on the same path as Ryan and who are calling him out for being immersed in the culture of toxic masculinity aren't saying that he's a toxic male, they're pointing out that he's also a victim of toxic masculinity... but that he has a lot of victims as a result. Sure, it's nowhere near as bad as Ryan, but it is still a thing. And, they're even pointing out that he could grow out of this. In the mean time, though, he's still a threat to women on campus.
--- End quote ---
And clearly I disagree with that.
Exactly where have we seen him "immersed in rape culture"?
I have never seen him remotely 'blame victims for being raped'.
Neither have I seen him attempt to (for want of a better word) 'seduce' anyone under the influence of drink or drugs.
And the last point is the one that really gets me, and that people are refusing to take into account...
Maybe the women who slept with him did actually want him to!
Maybe, just maybe, "casual sex" is actually a thing!
(No, surely not!)
He has NEVER classed any woman as "worthless" if they will not sleep with him.
As you say above, he certainly doesn't view Joyce as worthless, so that point is moot.
And if he did view woman as worthless, then why would he even consider his actions and (impotently-ironically) look to in some way 'make up' for his childish list? (A list, which it must be acknowledged, HE did not make public.)
He has, in fact, made no attempt to hide his availability for women to have sex with him.
Now... you may believe his list is part of this so called "Rape-Culture".
If you do, then there's little else can be said, as IMO, a fantasy "marks-out-of-ten, to-do" PRIVATE list, made by an immature, sexually maturing, young man boy, is so far removed from rape as to be laughable to attempt to link them.
And, Joe has victims?
I think that' straining the English language a little too far...
As is the whole viewpoint hat Joe is in some way dangerous and "toxic" and even (lord help us) a THREAT.
And calling him one, and claiming he has *victims* actively belittles the plight and trauma of women who have been sexually assaulted.
TL/DR: Pick your battles.
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