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Faypocalypse Sven

9 (6.9%)

Claireten Snuggles

12 (9.2%)

Clintonhand Naughtyness

3 (2.3%)

Dora fires Faye - Drama and drunkenness ensues

50 (38.2%)

Clairemom and Martenmom accidentally meet

4 (3.1%)

Emily gets weirder (is that even possible?)

4 (3.1%)

Sven rescues Faye - Dora gets wrong end of stick

12 (9.2%)

The surprise return on Angus - Blood and mayhem ensue

5 (3.8%)

Purple Monkey Dishwasher

7 (5.3%)

Whatever it is, it'll be completely unexpected

22 (16.8%)

ALIENS!

3 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 123

[Bologna]

So, really, what Mrs. Whitaker said might not mean anything at all. 

[aphanisis81]

I'm quite surprised at how resentful so many people are about Faye as a character, and even more about Dora.

One thing I'd say is that we have to keep in mind the slightly more comedic and, for lack of a better term, slightly less 'enlightened' circumstances of the earlier comics.

Jeph is an educated, sensitive gent, but in the early days he was playing Faye's violent tendencies for laughs, perhaps due to a lack of consideration or simply because the comic was a bit more cartoony in those days - either way I think he is nowadays far less likely to end a comic with the punchline being someone getting punched in the face.

The point I'm making is that accusing Faye of being a bad person based on her behaviour in earlier comics, when Jeph possibly won't have known himself as much as a writer, or known as much what he was aiming to achieve, isn't really fair on him at all, or on the character of Faye.

As for Dora I've no idea where this angry attitude is coming from.

Tell ya one thing though, I'd really like it if people stopped referring to anybody, fictional or otherwise, as a 'bitch' in this thread, mmm'kay?

Yeah, this is a big issue for me too. In fact, I think the only way to really reconcile some bizarre contradictions in the strip's narrative/character world is to consider everything pre-500 to be non-canon. In fact, just from seeing how excited I am to read QC lately - let's face it, this is as dramatic and compelling as it's been in a long time maybe ever - my wife said today that she might finally start reading it herself. I'm considering suggesting that she just start at comic #500. I feel like I could fill in the necessary background in 2 minutes; not that I don't enjoy rereading those first 499 strips myself, but I've noticed that others who try to read the comic at the behest of serious fans tend to find them offputting. Or they'll get through the first 100 or so and be like "I had to stop, I don't get why you like this so much."

Then again, the post-500 strips, not to mention later dramaz like The Breakup might pack less of a punch if read this way. I dunno.

[AnnathEawesoMe]

This is huge. Rather than leaving with the impression of just being fired for drinking, Faye can now portray Dora as having flipped out on her and being out of touch with reality. I totally agree with Natswash that Faye can and probably will tell her friends she quit instead of being fired. More importantly, Faye can now use this angle to poison Marten/everyone else against Dora and avoid admitting the real reason for her dismissal.

Except Marten's reaction will most likely be to talk to Dora.  The other employees at the coffee shop are going to hear Dora's side first, and most likely agree with her.  I predict Hanners is going to be a nervous wreck after this though.

I dunno,  I could see him finding out from Faye first, then talking to Tai about it. I definitely see Tai getting involved and talking with Claire/Marten about it. Probably talk to Emily too.

How likely is Dora to tell Marten, or anyone else about this? It's well within her character to work the rest of the opening shift by herself, she's done it before. The only reason CoD is usually shown with 2-3 workers at a time is for the plot and dialogue reasons. ALSO it's kind of shitty to spread rumors around your friend circle. Even though Faye does have a problem, she is still a friend and a human, and Dora sending a mass text to everyone "HEY I JUST FIRED FAYE CAUSE SHE'S DRUNK HAHA" would be real douchey, not to mention unprofessional. No one's full out saying that she should do this of course, but she does have to approach this situation more delicately, being Faye's former employer. That being said, sending a Marten a head's up text to let him know to keep an eye on Faye, not necessarily what the full situation is, would be a good move. Truth be told Faye could easily be unsupervised until tomorrow morning (if Marten stays the night at Claire's, shwink ) and in her current state that's very dangerous.

[anahata]

Dora sending a mass text to everyone "HEY I JUST FIRED FAYE CAUSE SHE'S DRUNK HAHA" would be real douchey, not to mention unprofessional.

For sure, but not informing her/Faye's friends about what had happened (in more respectful tones, of course) would be downright irresponsible.

[BenRG]

Dora sending a mass text to everyone "HEY I JUST FIRED FAYE CAUSE SHE'S DRUNK HAHA" would be real douchey, not to mention unprofessional.

For sure, but not informing her/Faye's friends about what had happened (in more respectful tones, of course) would be downright irresponsible.

An attempt may be made and I think Hanners will be available but Marten...?

"Hi, this is Marten; leave a message 'cause I can't take calls right now..."

"Yeah, he's busy making out with me! *giggles*"

"Claire! Damn it! No more sugar for you! Anyway, yeah, leave a message and a number, kay?"

[TheEvilDog]

Dora sending a mass text to everyone "HEY I JUST FIRED FAYE CAUSE SHE'S DRUNK HAHA" would be real douchey, not to mention unprofessional.

For sure, but not informing her/Faye's friends about what had happened (in more respectful tones, of course) would be downright irresponsible.

Dora would definitely try to contact Marten before anyone else, mainly because you know, he lives with Faye and is her best friend. Which might cause a little friction with Tai who might wonder why her girlfriend is calling her ex before her.

[Kiloku]

Dora sending a mass text to everyone "HEY I JUST FIRED FAYE CAUSE SHE'S DRUNK HAHA" would be real douchey, not to mention unprofessional.

For sure, but not informing her/Faye's friends about what had happened (in more respectful tones, of course) would be downright irresponsible.

An attempt may be made and I think Hanners will be available but Marten...?

"Hi, this is Marten; leave a message 'cause I can't take calls right now..."

"Yeah, he's busy making out with me! *giggles*"

"Claire! Damn it! No more sugar for you! Anyway, yeah, leave a message and a number, kay?"

[/lurk]
They're not this kind of couple. And Marten is rather good at prioritizing his friends.

[eschaton]

Faye basically decided to not follow Angus to NYC because of CoD and Marten (her other friendships, like Hanners, are secondary).  Now CoD is gone, and Marten is all she has left.  Thus she has every reason to try and find Angus, patch things up with him, move to NYC.  This would also allow her to continue running from her problems, at least for awhile.

That said, I don't think Angus is going to go for it.  For one thing, it's going to be a drunken confrontation, and given his lack of tact, he's going to say something which pisses off Faye.  For another thing, he's probably already begun moving on mentally - the spell is broken for him.  Mostly though, it isn't going to happen because it's really bad storytelling for Faye to leave a wake of devastation and then be "put on the bus."  She has further to fall still.  So if she crawls to Angus, he must rebuke her. 

The problem is, I don't see how she hits bottom here - quickly anyway - because Marten is Marten.  As others noted, I just don't see how she will get Marten so mad he won't put up with her shit in the shorter run.  Marten is someone with great patience, and very submissive - he's a textbook enabler.  And he already has a dynamic where he's willing to do whatever is needed to support Faye.  Faye drunkenly trying to seduce Marten out of loneliness would be ugly and awkward, but it wouldn't sunder their friendship any more than Martin doing inverse hurt things.  Faye would need to be an unemployed drunken bum for months before Marten would start setting limits - and even then I wonder if he'd hit up his mom for some money rather than kick Faye out. 

Also, no one else is moving in with Marten unless she's put on a bus.  Yes, she could go to the Station for awhile.  Or go back home for awhile and discover the truth about her dad.  Or go into rehab.  But all of these would take between a few weeks and a few months, not a year of time, and wouldn't require Marten to have someone new move in.  And all of them would signal Faye was on recovery, so it would be shitty for Marten to take in someone new knowing she'd be able to be gainfully employed again soon enough.  And I just don't see her moving in with Sven, even though she might try to get involved with him again, given she didn't ever seriously consider moving in with Angus.  Plus as far as I know, Sven has never lived with a girl - even if he's in love with her, he'll probably want his distance for a time. 

The title of the comic (The Great Schism) makes me think that the division will last for hundreds of strips, and involve more than just Dora and Faye - sundering the whole cast to a degree for a time.  It also seems to imply that neither one of them will be exiting the comic - at least to me.  Though I agree that if Faye stays in the comic, Dora will be dialed way, way back once the immediate drama passes.  She'll still be seen as Tai's girlfriend (however long that lasts) and we'll periodically see CoD because Hanners and Dale work there, but that will be about it.

Finally, I think it should be noted there's an outcome that people haven't considered - that Faye "recovers" for a time, dialing back the drinking without addressing the underlying issues.  I could see her rationalizing the reason she went to work drunk was not because she was an alcoholic, but because she actually started to hate working at CoD, and was looking for an excuse to leave.

[Svennerson]

Really? Man, not sure how I feel about that.

Sorry man, was just trying to be funny, no offense meant.

[BenRG]

Also, no one else is moving in with Marten unless she's put on a bus.

Have to disagree with this one. Remember, there was a trio in the apartment for short while with Dora living with Marten. Faye didn't seem to mind so it could easily happen again.

Other Points
I don't think that CoD will be de-emphasised any more than it is already (and it's already dropped down to joint importance as a setting with the Library). Remember that Marten goes there for a reason other than Faye anyway, so he has no particular reason to stop doing so.

I also don't think that there will be a taking of sides and a splitting of the cast. Whilst there may be a variation of responses as to reactions to these events, most characters have their own independent relationships other than those defined by the Dora-Faye axis. To me "The Great Schism" is entirely about Dora and Faye going their separate ways. Remember that this was a constant in the characters of Faye and Dora that even pre-dates their meeting Marten. It's going to be a big shock to the system for both of them not to have that in their lives anymore.

I'm hoping that Faye won't attempt to make it a 'It's CoD or me' choice because she'll alienate all her friends in pretty short order. Even Marten is now confident enough in himself to tell her that is a stupid and childish thing to do.

As for Dora specifically, she's been pushed back to secondary character status ever since her relationship with Tai became more settled. The primary characters at the moment seem to be Marten, Claire, Emily, Dale, Marigold and Faye with all the others being defined by their relationship to those six.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I have no issues with the way that Dora reacted towards discovering Faye drinking on the job as either Boss Dora or Friend Dora. When you run a business, you don't get to play favorites with your friends. If Dale or Penny had been caught drinking on the job, I don't imagine a lot of people would object to Dora bringing down the hammer. They object because they believe that Faye deserves some special sympathy because she is friends with the boss. Let's not forget that she's running a business. Many of the other users have given detailed explanations on why she should have been fired with prejudice and I agree with all of them. I would also like to add that I believe Dora needed to be that harsh. Giving Faye any kind of leniency including an ultimatum of "get help or get fired" would have sent the wrong message not only to her coworkers but to Faye herself. She believed that due to her friendship with Dora, all would be forgiven. Faye needed to see that there were serious consequences for her actions. Sometimes when you screw up badly enough, you don't get a second chance. All you get is the chance to learn and grow into another opportunity. I certainly hope Dora doesn't waffle on her decision in the near future because I would hate for Dora to be an enabler to Faye's alcoholism.

Even Friend Dora was right to be pissed. I never really was on board too much with the Faye hate before. However, her behavior especially as of late has been incredibly selfish. She lashes out and fights other people because it's harder than having to fight herself. She seems to take advantage of her relationships with her friends and use them to pick her up whenever she falls without making a real attempt to get her shit sorted. The thing that really pisses me off is that she not only knows she has a problem, she knows what it is. She's choosing the easy way out by self medicating. Both Dora and Marten have been good friends to Faye through this, despite whatever major issues Dora had herself. Dora is making a conscious effort in order to make her life better and drama free. I don't think she always makes the right decisions in that respect, but she's at least trying. Despite all that, she's still attempted to be a good friend to Faye outside of work and Faye responds by continuing a self-destructive spiral that is guaranteed to cause collateral damage and get irresponsibly drunk in a business that Dora damn well cares about, which threatens her business. I imagine Dora feels betrayed by that course of actions and anyone who could keep a cool head and not swing the ace of murdering pink slips would be a far more zen person than I.

Personally speaking, I don't see this as the revolution of the QCverse against Dora. I can imagine Faye would go to her friends, but she'd be wasted out of her mind because now she needs to self-medicate for losing Angus, losing her job, and losing Dora. Her friends are going to attempt to intervene and get help, but in her typical fashion of denial she's going to throw all their help in their faces all the while knowing they're right.

I don't really see Marten wanting to get himself that involved in the situation. I think while Marten would try to be there, he is showing a healthy growth towards looking for his own happiness first instead of that of others. He's become more confident in his life and choices and I don't think he'd want to dive into the spiraling rabbit hole of self-destruction after Faye. He has a lot more to lose now. That's not to say that he won't help Faye or he'll toss her butt out, but I think that the textbook running to Marten won't pay off like it used to.

Now this is where we get from the realm of what I think to what I hope. I really would like Sven to come back. If he does, Faye would likely attempt to make foolish decisions to get with Sven, but Sven attempting to become "a better person for Faye" will likely turn her down. However, he can be the support and calm reality check she needs to start attempting to confront her issues.

[Thrillho]

Really? Man, not sure how I feel about that.

Sorry man, was just trying to be funny, no offense meant.

That was aimed at BenRG, not you. Had I thought your comment out of line, I'd have taken mod action, not seemed personally wounded

[osaka]

I see that someone mentioned something about Marten not putting up with Faye's shit anymore. Allow me to go a bit back

Here, in 509, Marten specifically tells Faye to get fixed up. While it's an entire different context - it works here. Marten will get home, hear the news, see Faye several stages of fucked up, and maybe decide that after all this time Faye hasn't actually got any better. He might get mad. He could kick her out. Maybe cut his relationship with her.

Or as someone mentioned earlier, call mom. Veronica Reed can be very convincing.

[Stoon]

Hanners is the only one who's exploded and not put up with Faye's shit.  Hanners will sort Faye out.

[MooskiNet]

Or as someone mentioned earlier, call mom. Veronica Reed can be very convincing.

...and is not to be fucked with.

[TheCallMeFez]

A couple comics in a row  telling Faye to go home. Maybe its time for Faye to take a trip down South?

[Is it cold in here?]

Jeph said himself that if he met a Faye in real life he probably wouldn't get along with her.

Addressing the speculation about how bad it could get, Faye IS committing suicide right now. She's doing it on the installment plan instead of all at once.

[KOK]

Next we will see Marten return very happy from his date. Either after watching the movie, or if the date goes extremely well, the next morning. He will find Faye in a bad state. Total emotional breakdown, perhaps even acute alcohol poisoning.

[TheEvilDog]

Hanners is the only one who's exploded and not put up with Faye's shit.  Hanners will sort Faye out.

Thing is, would Faye even care at this stage?

[Drachenfel]

As it is... Faye isn't in the right here, but Dora still lost likeability.

... I guess, but anyone who is holding Dora to that standard, but not Marten.... is kinda holding a double standard.

My problem wasn't just that Dora didn't tell her to get help, but either way that's an unfair comparison.
Dora has known Faye for longer, for one. She also spends far more time with Faye than Marten does, and unlike Marten, Dora has been directly told by Faye that she wants to drink herself into oblivion. As far as we've seen, Marten has only observed Faye drinking earlier in the day than usual. Dora has far more information about the situation that Marten does. And, after catching Faye drinking on the job, (Which should come as no surprise after Faye said she wanted to be drunk on the job the day before, came in reeking of booze, happy, and had no hangover,) Dora didn't seem concerned or sympathetic in the slightest, just angry.

So yes, I hold Dora to a different standard then Marten, because Marten is far more ignorant of the situation and hasn't reacted with pure anger to his best friend hitting rock bottom.

Why should Dora be sympathetic? There are plenty of alcholics that manage to still show up for work sober, or at least realize they could be a danger to their co-workers and customers in their state and do the smart thing in call in sick.  What Faye did was betray Dora's trust here which is a major requirement of friendship.  If you can't trust your friends...how can they even be your friends?

[Drachenfel]

Hanners is the only one who's exploded and not put up with Faye's shit.  Hanners will sort Faye out.

OMG this reminds me why I love Hanners so much!!

[eschaton]

FWIW, I'm not saying that Marten couldn't reach the end of his rope eventually.  But it would be out of character for him to be anything but supportive in the shorter run.  By which I mean he won't kick her out, and will continue talking to her, even if he doesn't always tell her exactly what she wants to hear. 

Now of course, he could tell her it wasn't a good idea to drink on the job, inferring that he agrees with Dora that she should have been fired.  In turn this could cause Faye to explode at him.  But Faye couldn't burn the bridge all at once, because he'll rationalize that she was just drunk and upset, and didn't mean it, yadda yadda. 

Honestly though, Marten can be a dumbass, but I just don't see him prodding the angry hornets nest which is Faye right now.  He has more sense than to tell Faye something she knows already, given she fucked up in such a spectacularly obvious way.  That's what Angus will do if he comes back into the picture again for a bit.   

I think newcomers to the comic somewhat discount how strong the bond between Faye and Marten is.  Faye has said several times that Marten is her best friend, and she couldn't consider losing him.  He's far more important to her than Sven or Angus ever were.  And while it's harder to determine with Martin, since he's less expressive, I think he feels bound to Faye in as strong of a matter.  No matter how much Faye toyed with him in the first 500 strips, she basically created his entire social life, since he had nothing but Steve and Pintsize before.  And she was there for him in many other ways as he began developing as a character - particularly through his breakup with Dora.  The Faye/Martin bond, even if it is now totally platonic, is the core of the comic.  And it's one bridge which I don't foresee Faye burning on purpose (unlike Dora, who, despite being her friend, was always a target of resentment). 

[ReindeerFlotilla]

In my experience, reducing a discussion to semantics is a sure fire way to create tension in said discussion. I'd say that it's pretty obvious that Penguin47 is saying that he felt sad that the right thing to do was to put his dog down, but was in no way going to feel like it was his fault, due to it being the right thing to do. That's a healthy way to approach an unenviable task. I can see this going the same way your discussion went a couple days ago with a poster whose name I can't remember, and in both cases I'm afraid I think you're being a little overly-critical of people's uses of language, seeing as you obviously have a background in philosophy, Reindeer. Like I said, when in discussion with those who might not have the same background it would probably lead to fewer arguments if you were to take people up on the spirit they have made their points in, rather than the specific philosophical definition of some of the words they have used.

A: I have no background in philosophy, beyond thinking about the stuff.

B: This becomes an infinite semantic regression. I didn't say "You must feel guilty when situations like X happen." That was a semantic distiction introduced by Penguin47. So who is "wrong" in invoking a semantic argument?

C: The issue you speak of from the last few days involved BenRG and had to do with BenRG deciding that I was upset when I wasn't. This makes me upset. If you wish to psycho-analyse me, there's your symptom. I rather dislike people presuming to frame my emotional state. To suggest I am upset on the basis that I don't agree with you is, as I told BenRG at the outset, patronizing and dismissive. It could be a lot of other things, but to speculate as to what those are would require that I presume to know someone else's feelings/state of mind. (Unless you're talking about the question of axioms and beliefs, which is pretty much a semantic discussion from the outset, and another case where any upset assigned to me exists only in the reader's head).

Everyone is capable of presumption, or communication missteps. Everyone injects their own tone into what other people write (unless they read everything in Morgan Freeman's voice, which--thinking about it--would probably make the world a better place if everyone did it). I've been on the internet since pretty much the time when the World Wide Web became a thing. I've been up and down the tone policing debates, and there's no winning response. No matter how you communicate, there's someone out there who is going to take what you say and inject something you didn't say into it. Sometimes, it's malicious, sometimes it's just what they understood you to be talking about.

For example, in the case BenRG, I wrote a passing objection to the idea that Marten would storm anywhere. BenRG seemed (seemed: I have no actually knowledge of his state of mind) to assume that I was arguing that Marten would not be upset. I took his initial responses as objections to my objection, when--in reality--we weren't on the same subject. I only became aware of the disconnect when the rather left field accusation of emotional disturbance cropped up. Up to that point I wasn't aware there was anything to be emotionally invested in.

Call it semantics, on my part. I can't say you're wrong. But I'd point out, again, that I didn't say that guilt is mandatory, but Penguin47 (and by extension, MoM) framed the quote they used to say that. That framing is semantics as well--finding a reading of what I wrote and disagreeing with it. I didn't say what BenRG seemed to be defending against. Trying to clear that up is semantics as well.

I'm not accusing them of anything. I just finished pointing out that everyone understands what they read as their own interpretation. But if someone interprets what you write as something you didn't actually say, exactly how do you point that out without invoking semantics? It seems to me that there's nothing wrong with semantics, unless you are splitting hairs in order to create conflict. In my case, my intent is to clarify what I wrote when it seems to me that someone has attached meaning to it I didn't intend.

I'm not sure I can be any more clear than that about it. I can be abrupt, but that's decades of internet (Frak, I'm old. At least I can only date back as far as the first years of the WWW). I'm not extolling rudeness, just cutting to the chase. And it seems to me that the chase, here is that we've now reached the point where the topic has lost all relevance to QC and is now about me. I came here to post something relevant about addiction, but it seems to me that it would be overwhelmed. Of course, I didn't have to respond. My choice. But I'll save the relevant stuff for another time). I don't presume to moderate, but it seems to me that this is not the appropriate forum for the topic of me. There's PM's and stuff for that--though this isn't an invitation to PM. I've said everything I have to say so I likely won't bother reading anything more on the subject, unless it's handed down by a mod in an official capacity. I'm tired of it (from my perspective, it's other people becoming bizarrely and inexplicably upset. I'm just aware that I don't know what's actually motivating them, so I'm not going to cast aspersions). It's a no win situation, and I'm not James Kirk.

[themacnut]

As others noted, I just don't see how she will get Marten so mad he won't put up with her shit in the shorter run.  Marten is someone with great patience, and very submissive - he's a textbook enabler.  And he already has a dynamic where he's willing to do whatever is needed to support Faye.  Faye drunkenly trying to seduce Marten out of loneliness would be ugly and awkward, but it wouldn't sunder their friendship any more than Martin doing inverse hurt things.  Faye would need to be an unemployed drunken bum for months before Marten would start setting limits - and even then I wonder if he'd hit up his mom for some money rather than kick Faye out.

And this is why I believe the SS Clairten may be in danger of running aground on Drunken Faye Reef. Marten knows that his friend Faye is drinking because she's in pain, and him being the kind of guy he is, he'll try to help Faye however he can. Faye won't hesitate to soak up ALL the help Marten tries to provide, especially if it enables her to keep drinking (which it almost certainly will). This being the very beginning of his and Claire's relationship, Claire may object to Marten giving so much attention to someone apparently determined to drink themselves into the gutter (as Claire may think). Also, Marten being Marten, it may take him a long time to realize he has to set boundaries on what he does for Faye, and even longer to actually put those boundaries in place. Meanwhile, his erstwhile girlfriend gets more and more annoyed at the time and attention sink drunken Faye is becoming.

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

[pendrake]

[Faye]: Help?  HELP?  I don't need any fuckin' help.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

As a former Social Worker, I heard this line (still do hear it, sadly) far too many times, with far too many tragic results.

When does one hit Rock Bottom?  It is not about getting help by then.

One of the clearest signs of hitting Rock bottom...? When you have gotten so low that finally admit you need help... Only to discover no one is around offering it to you any more...

Warning - while you were typing new replies have been posted. You may wish to review how you used to be a regular here.  What happened, dude?

[MooskiNet]

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

Yeah, Imma have to put my chips on the other square.  I think if Faye does anything to insert herself between Marten and Claire, the spine he's been developing for the last 80 strips is going to turn to steel and Faye's going to lose (again).

[plusorminus]

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

I agree with all of what you wrote, themacnut, but particularly this passage. Claire does not pull her punches. Marten is her first boyfriend and she will not want to rock the boat too much, but I can't see her co-signing Marten deciding to spend a lot of time on Faye at this point. I could see Claire feeling that Faye's problems are self-inflicted. She is the one who decided she didn't love Angus enough to follow him to New York. She is the one who decided to crawl into the bottle rather than face her situation. I can't think that Claire would be all right with Marten being Faye's enabler. Dora allowed it and resented it, as has been pointed out, but she was also Faye's friend and wanted to help her.

I think that that whoever said that the title of this being the Great Schism means more than just Faye and Dora is right. I think that all of the months that Marten wondered about his rudderless life will culminate in his decision that he needs to break free of Faye and her problems. I don't mean he'll drop her as a friend, just that he can't let her issues consume him and he will move away from her similarly to the way he moved away from Steve. I disagree, themacnut, that Claire will be the loser. I think Faye will be. I feel Marten understands that if he allows Faye to drag him into her mess, he'll be back at square one. He's growing and Faye is regressing. Possibly she'll get pulled out of it, but I think that in this arc, we will see Marten actually growing a pair and deciding to do what is best for him. Claire is what's best for him and I think he is starting to realize that.

ETA: MooskiNet's post says what I wanted to say much more succintly and much better put!

[Kugai]

If this thing doesn't go Thermonuclear by Friday, it'll be a miracle of biblical proportions

[ReindeerFlotilla]

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

And this is why I'd vote on Claire. Well, two reasons more: First, Claire was recently Jeph's favorite character. It would be an extremely odd (but actually kind of heroic in a writerly sort of way) if Jeph put his fav on a bus. I'm assuming Jeph is human and probably won't do that.

Second, Claire is the single trans character in Jeph's comic and Jeph is committed to "doing it right." Making the trans character disposable is a big risk.

I've struggled with the same issue in creating a trans character. From my perspective, the character is just a character. A really important one. But looking at the story from the outside, I can see how the culmination of another character's story arc will (almost certainly not just possibly, it will be taken this way) seem like the trans character is getting shat upon in a way that disrespects trans people. I can't do anything to mitigate that without giving away almost the whole plot. I could give that part of the story to a different character, but that would basically reduce the trans character to token status. I could make the character not trans, but... Well, the whole point of the trans character is that the trans aspect isn't what defines them (it does have a distant impact on the story, and informs the character) but it's not a plot driver. Also, this character has been in development forever. I was kind of bummed when Claire "beat me to the punch" with the whole trans but no big deal thing).

So, for all I know Jeph is going to put Claire on the bus, because he's gone down the same road and come to the same conclusion--dodging the plot elements in favor of the trans character's transness is just as bad as playing the trans character for a spectacle. But it's a damned hard decision to make, and I don't see the necessity of putting anyone on a bus, just yet.

On the other hand, if a bus is ordained, I can see Faye on it. It's the kind of thing people in bad decision spirals do. Disappear only to show up later totally used up, or in dire need of help getting out of jam they made for themselves. Or both.

edit: Plusorminus said better than I.

edit edit: typo

[eschaton]

And this is why I believe the SS Clairten may be in danger of running aground on Drunken Faye Reef. Marten knows that his friend Faye is drinking because she's in pain, and him being the kind of guy he is, he'll try to help Faye however he can. Faye won't hesitate to soak up ALL the help Marten tries to provide, especially if it enables her to keep drinking (which it almost certainly will). This being the very beginning of his and Claire's relationship, Claire may object to Marten giving so much attention to someone apparently determined to drink themselves into the gutter (as Claire may think). Also, Marten being Marten, it may take him a long time to realize he has to set boundaries on what he does for Faye, and even longer to actually put those boundaries in place. Meanwhile, his erstwhile girlfriend gets more and more annoyed at the time and attention sink drunken Faye is becoming.

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

Faye was very insecure when Marten started dating Dora, but at that time the romantic feelings between them were not fully buried, and they had been friends for a much shorter period of time.  While she's going through a bad spell now, I don't think she'll worry about Claire stealing Marten away for quite awhile.  Not unless he starts talking about moving out or something, which (judging by the flow of comic time) isn't going to happen for 500+ strips.  The worst thing that would happen is Marten will be going out on dates fairly often.  But even here, given Claire lives at home, it's more likely that Claire will be at the apartment than vice versa in the future. 

Faye will, of course, be resentful of Marten's happiness.  But Faye has always had a great grasp on reality when it comes to other people, just not herself.  I can't think of one time Faye seriously misinterpreted the intentions of anyone in the strip (though I'm sure people will find some links).  She doesn't jump to wrong, paranoid conclusions the way Dora does anyway. 

I think that that whoever said that the title of this being the Great Schism means more than just Faye and Dora is right. I think that all of the months that Marten wondered about his rudderless life will culminate in his decision that he needs to break free of Faye and her problems. I don't mean he'll drop her as a friend, just that he can't let her issues consume him and he will move away from her similarly to the way he moved away from Steve. I disagree, themacnut, that Claire will be the loser. I think Faye will be. I feel Marten understands that if he allows Faye to drag him into her mess, he'll be back at square one. He's growing and Faye is regressing. Possibly she'll get pulled out of it, but I think that in this arc, we will see Marten actually growing a pair and deciding to do what is best for him. Claire is what's best for him and I think he is starting to realize that.

Aside from Faye jerking Marten around in terms of a potential love interest in the first 500 strips (and a little bit of residual possessiveness thereafter), what exactly has Faye done to this point which is emotionally draining to Marten?  When did she ask him to choose between emotional growth and supporting her?  It would be just weird for Marten to turn his back now, when she's in the wrong but clearly needs support, because it's not like he's been continually fucked over in recent years. 

Edit:  Bottom line is while you might think that Faye is a shitty person, and was a shitty employee, she has been a great friend to Marten since around the thousandth strip.  You cannot undo all that overnight, or even in 200-300 strips. 

[TheEvilDog]

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

And this is why I'd vote on Claire. Well, two reasons more: First, Claire was recently Jeph's favorite character. It would be an extremely odd (but actually kind of heroic in an writerly sort of way) if Jeph put his fav on a bus. I'm assuming Jeph is human and probably won't do that.

Bear in mind that at various times Jeph has said Dora and Faye have been his favourites. He's been writing the comic for twelve years and things change, favourites change and right now, Dora is seemingly fading into the background, while Faye is crashing and burning. Nothing is ever certain. Remember that.

[pwhodges]

I don't presume to moderate, but it seems to me that this is not the appropriate forum for the topic of me. There's PM's and stuff for that--though this isn't an invitation to PM. I've said everything I have to say so I likely won't bother reading anything more on the subject, unless it's handed down by a mod in an official capacity.

Global Moderator Comment

Quite so. If there is personal stuff to discuss, take it to PMs; if it's too unfriendly, take it to the mods; if it's a matter that could still be of wider interest, make a thread in Relate. There is a paragraph to this effect in the forum rules. We have a tradition of being tolerant about odd subjects that come up as a result of the comics being discussed in this thread, especially at the weekend; but personal matters are different.

[ItsNotATumor]

(Going into management practices in the real life US).

Dora in 2879 is textbook fine. Catches her employee drunk, fires her on the spot. Well done. Clear message, to the point, and no liability.

Dora in 2880 in panel 2 makes a big mistake. She brings up "abuse, disrespect, insubordination". Has she been giving regular feedback to Faye about these things? Has Faye been notified about these three things? I've never seen Dora bring any of these issues up to Faye. Big, big mistake on Dora's part to say this. Now, Faye has a case. Faye can make the case that she was fired not due to negligent performance, but because of trumped up personal issues. "Your honor, I'd been doing a wonderful job at CoD, and then one day Dora just *makes up* all of these reasons! No, she'd never talked about any of these things before! Yes, she joked around with customers, and I followed her lead! Is it possible that she fired me because I'm best friends with her ex, and she never got over that? Why yes, that DOES make sense!".

Bad move, Dora. You should have shut up after "You're fired". Even if Mass. is an at-will employment state, it's not good to open yourself up to that kind of thing. If those other issues were problems you needed to have talked to Faye about them (and taken notes that you'd done so). If those other issues were simmering under the surface then you failed by not bringing them up earlier. Bringing them up is a very big negative EV move with no upside. It gives Faye a potential out for legal action.

Finally, telling her to get help is another Very Bad Move (as a manager). It indicates that Dora might have known there was an ongoing problem. And if she knew there was an ongoing problem, that's more potential liability. "Your honor, she *knew* that I was having ongoing problems with alcohol, she even told me to get help. But then she fired me out of nowhere! No it wasn't a surprise to her, she knew about this all along *sobs*".

Double bad move Dora. Her anger here and outburst could potentially lose her the business if Faye chooses to go that route.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

This conflict may get serious enough where Marten may find himself forced to choose between Faye and Claire, and whoever he decides against will then proceed to remove themselves from his life. Considering the history between him and Faye, and the fact that Claire is a relative newcomer...it doesn't look good for Claire.

And this is why I'd vote on Claire. Well, two reasons more: First, Claire was recently Jeph's favorite character. It would be an extremely odd (but actually kind of heroic in an writerly sort of way) if Jeph put his fav on a bus. I'm assuming Jeph is human and probably won't do that.

Bear in mind that at various times Jeph has said Dora and Faye have been his favourites. He's been writing the comic for twelve years and things change, favourites change and right now, Dora is seemingly fading into the background, while Faye is crashing and burning. Nothing is ever certain. Remember that.

No disagreement there. But the last fave before Claire was Marigold. Unless he's moved on to Dale and May, I'm willing to take the risk that Claire's still high up on the fav totem pole. Bussing Faye out works even in the favorite zone because she's unfinished--assuming it goes down as conflict between Faye's priorities and Claire's with Marten between. With Faye's major issue unresolved, she has to come back. In that same conflict, Claire leaving would be a hard break to come back from.

[plusorminus]

It's Not a Tumor, none of that will fly. Dora has discussed Faye's performance with Faye. There have been numerous examples given by others in this thread. She's told her to cut the shit and basically most of the other baristas are just used to Faye's acerbicness but Dora has reigned her in when it has gotten to be counterproductive. Also considering Dora bumped Faye up to Assistant Manager well after her breakup with Marten, and risked alienating her workstaff by doing so, it would be very hard for Faye to argue that Dora had it in for her because she's Marten's best friend.

There have also been examples given in this thread where Dora has stated coming to work drunk and/or high is a no. Faye did that, lied about it, and proceeded to try to get loaded again on the job.

Faye has no case.

[toffee-skye]

What I've found interesting is how many people have mentioned Tai and Dora in relation to Faye.

We know - hell, we've seen it in action - how Tai frequently goes to work high or under some form of inebriation. What we don't know if it's purely recreational (and just livens up working in a student library which would try anyone's patience) or is closer to a coping mechanism (like Faye's drinking).

I know it's not fully comparable, but look at how Tai's reacted to a similar friend-shock-meltdown situation; "Oh shit, I had no idea about any of this". She straight up apologises, sits down, lets her more-informed friends take the reins. Call this pure speculation but I don't think it'll be in Tai's character to be anything other than understanding and sympathetic towards Dora's position right now. Sure, she's previously advocated drug use at work but there's an implication that it's recreational and whilst she might view drunkness at work from the position of "hey man, I just work here, I'd use it as blackmail material" Also, as mentioned, it's a different environment - Faye works with hot steam, has a sculpture studio in the basement; i.e. is frequently around objects that can and do cause injury. Tai works in a university library, which is probably a bit less high-pressure and (presumably) less dangerous.

Plus, it wouldn't surprise me if off-camera Dora would vent to Tai about her business - she's the sole proprietor of a small business, whereas Tai is working a student job that makes her pretty expendable - and I think Tai would be sympathetic. Comparing Tai's inebriation at work to Faye's inebriation is kind of.. Apples and oranges, as it were. Similarities and differences; similar in that they're both inebriated, different in that.. well, Faye's fucked up, put simply.

Faye followed the course I predicted; she tried to bargain and argue her way out. I still think Dora's in the right here.

It gives Faye a potential out for legal action.

Honestly? I don't think Faye even has the mental togetherness to fathom that as a reasonable course of action. This sounds very naive I'm sure, but I think something in Faye's (more sober) brain would still go "hey, woah, no, she's my friend" - hence why she tried to bargain for her job back. She might be done with CoD and her employment, but I don't think she's manipulative or vindictive enough to try and get Dora's business sunk.

I can see Marten having to choose between Faye and Claire. Claire isn't as established in the friend group, and whilst she might be a favourite, we've seen her react with volatility to perceived wrongdoings on certain subjects and whilst I doubt Faye would drunkenly come on to Marten, if Claire sensed inappropriate behaviour she would freak out. This isn't even speculating on how Claire would respond to alcoholism, or what Faye could say to Claire, or other stuff. I think it might boil down to who does Marten care about more? Faye, who has been abusive in the past, who has also been a good friend in the past, but is currently struggling and requiring a time-consuming recovery period, or Claire, who he wants to date and cares about? Even if it didn't come to this straight away, I can't help but wonder if Claire would feel neglected if Marten repeatedly said "no, sorry, I need to help Faye" to her.

[also this took freaking forever to write up because I compulsively needed receipts for all the crap I'm referencing. I have a weirdly good memory for these comics so it's like.. oh-god-no-one-else-will-remember-must-find-proof]

[themacnut]

Faye was very insecure when Marten started dating Dora, but at that time the romantic feelings between them were not fully buried, and they had been friends for a much shorter period of time.  While she's going through a bad spell now, I don't think she'll worry about Claire stealing Marten away for quite awhile. 

No no, that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about Marten seeing his longtime good friend Faye in trouble, drinking herself half to death, him trying to help her, and Claire being resentful of his efforts, especially once it becomes clear that Faye is taking advantage of that help (as alcoholics do) to get more alcohol and stay drunk.

For example, Faye goes home after her firing, gets drunk and then drunk-dials Marten while he's out with Claire. He picks up, she starts crying into the phone about how unfair Dora is etc, while slurring horribly, making it clear to Marten that she's very drunk. Then she drops the phone and Marten hears gagging and puking sounds as Faye throws up. He's quite naturally going to end his date with Claire early to rush home and check on Faye. Claire's not going to like that. She may try to be understanding at first, but if this kind of thing keeps happening (and it will, Faye 'cause Faye will keep getting plastered for awhile yet) she's going to start speaking out against doing anything for Faye.

This will cause a growing conflict within Marten - listen to his girlfriend, who will demand he cut Faye off, or help his equally demanding and troubled friend Faye, who he fears will destroy herself? His choice will determine whether he keeps his girlfriend and maybe the course of Faye's life; if Marten decides he's sick of her shit, who else can she depend on to put up with her?

[Mr. Skawronska]

What if Faye follows in her father's footsteps and commits suicide? After being fired and going on another drinking binge, she might think everything is hopeless. Even though she has a possibility of being rescued by Sven, who might decide to put up with Faye's issues because he's blinded by love/lust.

I could imagine a scenario where Marten and Claire come back from their date and find Faye's lifeless body on the sofa or in the bathroom. If Faye kills herself, the repercussions on the cast will be huge. The funeral would be a way to bring old characters back in an ensemble setting.

It's also possible that they find Faye so drunk and passed out that they call an ambulance and she goes to the hospital. Again, it would be a way to bring older characters back as they visit Faye.

Oh, now you're just teasing and making me want more popcorn.

I'm quite surprised at how resentful so many people are about Faye as a character, and even more about Dora.

One thing I'd say is that we have to keep in mind the slightly more comedic and, for lack of a better term, slightly less 'enlightened' circumstances of the earlier comics.

Jeph is an educated, sensitive gent, but in the early days he was playing Faye's violent tendencies for laughs, perhaps due to a lack of consideration or simply because the comic was a bit more cartoony in those days - either way I think he is nowadays far less likely to end a comic with the punchline being someone getting punched in the face.

Even with this being the case, and yes, I fully understand playing Faye's violent streak for hyperbolic humor, Faye has treated her FRIENDS in an emotionally abusive manner, indicative of malignant narcissism, and deserves every bit of misery visited upon her.  I won't call her names.  In fact, when I call someone a "Faye" it's far worse than any commonly used derogatory epithet.

Pretty much from her introduction Faye has been an entitled leeching thug. Her interactions with others are rarely pleasant, nearly always to her benefit and usually joyless. At leaast Pintsize has the excuse he was programmed that way, Faye is just an extremely self-centred jerk and frankly "wah wah, I saw my dad kill myself" doesn't hack it.

And thank you for putting that so succinctly.  Faye's antics have reduced me to a sputtering rage for years, and so her comeuppance is especially cathartic to me.  Thank you for distilling my reasons behind that so well.

Better than I could.

Finally, I think it should be noted there's an outcome that people haven't considered - that Faye "recovers" for a time, dialing back the drinking without addressing the underlying issues.  I could see her rationalizing the reason she went to work drunk was not because she was an alcoholic, but because she actually started to hate working at CoD, and was looking for an excuse to leave.

That would DEFINITELY be a very Faye thing to do.  You're right.  She needs to fall a lot farther.

A LOT.

And I see my popcorn is running low.

Addressing the speculation about how bad it could get, Faye IS committing suicide right now. She's doing it on the installment plan instead of all at once.

And I appreciate the ability to savor every bit of it.

S

Warning - while you were composing that mishmash you call a post, a new reply has been posted because this thread is like a runaway train. You may wish to review your post and cut out a bunch of crap from it because it may be seen as utterly irrelevant by the time you actually hit "post".  Or you may not care or actually realize you hate Faye because she reflects many of the negative aspects of your own personality.  Either way, you really ought to re-read it and decide, but whatever you choose, own those feelings.  That'll be 500 bucks.  Next Tuesday?

[Kugai]

It may be that this is the proverbial 'Kick in the pants' that Faye needs (both from Dora and others if I read this right) to finally get her act together.

I can see Jeph sending her back home, maybe back to her mother and away from all that's happened recently in order to start getting herself back together, but I also think I can see her dropping further into the hole she's digging for herself at the moment before she finally hits bedrock and admits she has a problem.

I don't see Jeph writing her out of the comic, but that's just me.

[Aimless]

I find it very difficult to really hate someone on a personal level when that someone is a fictional character created and written by someone trying to tell a story. There are characters I dislike seeing, but I have a hard time forgetting that they do not themselves have much in the way of agency and that makes it very difficult for me to let myself fill my head and my heart with the purest most malign kind of hatred. It just feels weird and fucked-up I guess.

I thought I'd dislike the coming arc but I think I'm going to enjoy seeing Jeph's take on Faye's descent into drunkenness.

[DSL]

Lots of assumptions about Claire in recent posts. My bet is Jeph is going to show us a Claire that rates a lot more respect than we thought. "Little Mother," anyone? Might break the Pugnacious Peach into little peach pieces, which will gratify some (EDIT: and might be good for Faye).

I haven't seen such Faye-hate, by the way, since a former forumite projected her real-world nemesis onto the P. Peach. The venom is dripping into the popcorn.

[Kugai]

Hmmmm

Interesting preposition.


Claire as Fayes Big Sister/Saviour

[ReindeerFlotilla]

This thread's only up to 13. During the SS Claireten launch it topped 30.

I find it very difficult to really hate someone on a personal level when that someone is a fictional character created and written by someone trying to tell a story. There are characters I dislike seeing, but I have a hard time forgetting that they do not themselves have much in the way of agency and that makes it very difficult for me to let myself fill my head and my heart with the purest most malign kind of hatred. It just feels weird and fucked-up I guess.

I thought I'd dislike the coming arc but I think I'm going to enjoy seeing Jeph's take on Faye's descent into drunkenness.

Well said.

[eschaton]

No no, that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about Marten seeing his longtime good friend Faye in trouble, drinking herself half to death, him trying to help her, and Claire being resentful of his efforts, especially once it becomes clear that Faye is taking advantage of that help (as alcoholics do) to get more alcohol and stay drunk.

For example, Faye goes home after her firing, gets drunk and then drunk-dials Marten while he's out with Claire. He picks up, she starts crying into the phone about how unfair Dora is etc, while slurring horribly, making it clear to Marten that she's very drunk. Then she drops the phone and Marten hears gagging and puking sounds as Faye throws up. He's quite naturally going to end his date with Claire early to rush home and check on Faye. Claire's not going to like that. She may try to be understanding at first, but if this kind of thing keeps happening (and it will, Faye 'cause Faye will keep getting plastered for awhile yet) she's going to start speaking out against doing anything for Faye.

This will cause a growing conflict within Marten - listen to his girlfriend, who will demand he cut Faye off, or help his equally demanding and troubled friend Faye, who he fears will destroy herself? His choice will determine whether he keeps his girlfriend and maybe the course of Faye's life; if Marten decides he's sick of her shit, who else can she depend on to put up with her?

When you put it that way, I don't see how Claire wins.  In Marten's eyes, Claire's demands will seem petty, cold and self-serving.  Unless he realizes on his own (e.g., independent of any relationship conflict) that he's enabling Faye.  Then all bets are off.  But if Claire keeps harping on it, it will become *the* fight of their relationship, which will make him want to back down on it less and less.  Thus dooming things. 

Still, I think people here are presuming a bit too much about the continued trajectory.  Remember that everyone in the strip thought that Faye was a functional human being up until a few days ago.  The norm for her would be to peel back out of this bender at some point - probably before she gains any self-awareness as to her status.  Faye will not become an (early) Marigold like slug who doesn't leave the apartment.  It would be totally out of character.   Not to mention boring from a strip perspective. 

[plusorminus]

Lots of assumptions about Claire in recent posts. My bet is Jeph is going to show us a Claire that rates a lot more respect than we thought. "Little Mother," anyone? Might break the Pugnacious Peach into little peach pieces, which will gratify some.

I haven't seen such Faye-hate, by the way, since a former forumite projected her real-world nemesis onto the P. Peach. The venom is dripping into the popcorn.

I'm sorry, but I can't really see this happening given what we know of Claire. This IS the same woman who called Tai a "homewrecker" when she got the wrong end of the stick about how her relationship with Dora came about. This is also someone who has made it clear that a workplace is sacrosanct and not for shenanigans. I can't see her all of a sudden becoming the Hanners to Faye's Marigold.

Jeph has shown us enough of Claire that those of us predicting a schism that will feature her on one side and Faye on the other can feel fairly confident in that prediction. She is insecure. She dug Marten for a long time and now they're dating. She has literally never had a boyfriend before and is concerned with doing everything "properly" and her movie invitation hints that she is ready for Marten to start thinking about the two of them spending serious time alone. I think that, more than any sisterly care, is what prompted her to go along with the Clinton/Emily stuff. She wants him out of her hair so that she and Marten can get to know each other properly.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile that person and think that suddenly she is going to be Faye's Florence Nightengale. I could see it happening if MRS. Augustus, not Mr. Augustus, battled the bottle in the wake of her marriage falling apart. Then I think it might be fair to say Claire, having experienced this with her mother, would have the tools to help Faye. But there is nothing, IMO, in the way Claire has been presented to us thus far that in any way suggests that she is going to be anything but livid if Faye's issues come between her and Marten. Themacnut's last post on this sums this up brilliantly.

[Neko_Ali]

I would respond to those who have been saying that this is Faye getting ready to be sent off on the bus... I don't see it. From a storytelling perspective, it would be horrible after all this setup... And this has started at the VERY least back when Faye found Angus' audition notice for the job in The City. To wrap it all up at this point with 'And Faye got some therapy and started seeing AA and got better' or 'Faye decided to go with Angus after all' would really be cheaping both the story so far, and the very real struggles that alcoholics, the people who care for them and those suffering from serious depression have to go through. There is no quick fast forward button and a quick wrap up in real life, or in good storytelling. No.. I see this as the storyline reaching a dramatic peak in these last couple of weeks. And Faye is about to come crashing down hard, with a lot of collateral damage to her friends and support structure. Because that is how alcoholism really works. I honestly feel that this will keep going on for quite some time now... There won't be any quick or easy solutions to be found.

[Kugai]

Which is why I can see this dragging out for a week or three until she finally hits rock bottom and metaporically 'Burns Her Bridges' with everyone, at which point Jeph may send her away for a while (with the odd peak in) while she gets her act together.

[Neko_Ali]

I think that would be to clean a resolution though. Once money runs out I could see her heading back to Savannah for a visit with her mother though. That would still seriously impact other members of the cast, especially Marten. Not only would it be a financial burden on him, I really see him as the kind of person who would want to try to 'fix' his friend, and feel bad that he didn't see how bad it was getting for her.  And from those who have ever known alcoholics or attended Al-Anon (not AA, but friends and family of alcholics) meetings can tell you, that never goes well.

[eschaton]

Which is why I can see this dragging out for a week or three until she finally hits rock bottom and metaporically 'Burns Her Bridges' with everyone, at which point Jeph may send her away for a while (with the odd peak in) while she gets her act together.

Two or three weeks comic time, or our time?  Because our time, that's one, possibly two comic days.  And once again, I just don't see how Marten is going to get "tired of her shit" after 1-2 days, given she hasn't been giving him any shit at all for years in comic. 

[DSL]

Plusorminus, you typed a hell of a lot in a hurry. I would say some of the things you cited, in particular the high value she places on stable relationships, in fact point to Claire's *empathy* and surprise those on the forum whom are predicting/hoping for a psychonuclear exchange. Note that once she learned the full(er) story of the Marten-Dora-Tai progression, she backed down from her "homewrecker" accusation. She and Tai appear to get along fine now, the main problem being confetti-intolerance,