Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 2897 - 2901 (16-20 February 2015)
ReindeerFlotilla:
--- Quote from: MooskiNet on 19 Feb 2015, 10:49 ---
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 19 Feb 2015, 10:45 ---
--- Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 19 Feb 2015, 10:40 ---Are we starting a meta-dialogue about the conversation we aren't supposed to be having here? Because the recursion level there has reached the recursion level there.
--- End quote ---
What we talk about when we talk about not talking about Claire
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Okay, time to go read Kant. That hurt my mind.
--- End quote ---
Try not to think about the fact that your mind is hurt because it hurt your mind. Such thoughts will hurt your mind as they are recursively tautological due to tautological recursion.
--- Quote from: eschaton on 19 Feb 2015, 10:54 ---
--- Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 19 Feb 2015, 10:25 ---That's pretty much the most disturbing bit of analysis I've seen in this thread.
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OMG yes!
Marten clearly has had a role outside of his relationship with Claire over the last 100 strips, even if it's mainly been to be a good friend to Faye. Claire seems to be heading in the direction of totally failing the Bechdel Test as a character.
Hell, even Padma, who was just a fling, more or less, had more independent agency from Marten while we saw her. She had Elliott-related drama, grandmother drama, the weird fight scenes with Faye, etc. She wasn't a passive vessel, which is the vibe I'm getting off Claire. Or more properly, both of them when together, but we don't get to see Claire much when she's not with Marten.
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I find it disturbing because it didn't feel forced. It's a poster child for slippery slope arguments.
DrClef:
The problem I have with the recent failures of writing is that all of this is happening with CLAIRE.
What I loved about Claire was how well she fit in to the group. She was basically just another character in the group. Oftentimes I'd completely forget that she was trans at all: like the wedding arc. It wasn't until she got back and had that conversation with Clinton that I remembered "Oh yeah. . . that would actually have the possibility of being dangerous for her."
But the moment she has a relationship with Marten it felt like she wasn't allowed to be Claire any more. Instead she had to be "ICONIC TRANS FEMALE CHARACTER." And Marten had to be "PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDING CIS MALE BOYFRIEND." Because this wasn't just another relationship. This was CLAIRE'S RELATIONSHIP! And it is big and important and significant and we need to make sure everyone knows that this is perfect and without problems and spend thirty pages on it and bleh.
Whereas: imagine how much more powerful the message would be if Jeph just handled it the same way he handled the start of other relationships? The message then would be "Trans-Cis relationships are just the same as any other: the issues can be different, but the relationship is the same."
Like. . . why did #2900 need to exist? Claire is going to have bad days? Of course she is. Everyone has bad days. I want to see Claire have a bad day and have Marten cuddle and support her. That's how a good writer would have handled it.
Hell, that's how JEPH would have handled it. He said more about Marten and Faye's relationship in a single hug in #2816.
I think it's unfair to characterize the critics of Clairten as wanting to see them break up for the sake of drama. A lot of us shipped the two and were happy as hell when they got together. But looking back at the entire arc, it felt self-indulgent and saccharine, and I seriously hope that it's over.
aphanisis81:
--- Quote from: DrClef on 19 Feb 2015, 12:02 ---The problem I have with the recent failures of writing is that all of this is happening with CLAIRE.
What I loved about Claire was how well she fit in to the group. She was basically just another character in the group. Oftentimes I'd completely forget that she was trans at all: like the wedding arc. It wasn't until she got back and had that conversation with Clinton that I remembered "Oh yeah. . . that would actually have the possibility of being dangerous for her."
But the moment she has a relationship with Marten it felt like she wasn't allowed to be Claire any more. Instead she had to be "ICONIC TRANS FEMALE CHARACTER." And Marten had to be "PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDING CIS MALE BOYFRIEND." Because this wasn't just another relationship. This was CLAIRE'S RELATIONSHIP! And it is big and important and significant and we need to make sure everyone knows that this is perfect and without problems and spend thirty pages on it and bleh.
Whereas: imagine how much more powerful the message would be if Jeph just handled it the same way he handled the start of other relationships? The message then would be "Trans-Cis relationships are just the same as any other: the issues can be different, but the relationship is the same."
Like. . . why did #2900 need to exist? Claire is going to have bad days? Of course she is. Everyone has bad days. I want to see Claire have a bad day and have Marten cuddle and support her. That's how a good writer would have handled it.
Hell, that's how JEPH would have handled it. He said more about Marten and Faye's relationship in a single hug in #2816.
I think it's unfair to characterize the critics of Clairten as wanting to see them break up for the sake of drama. A lot of us shipped the two and were happy as hell when they got together. But looking back at the entire arc, it felt self-indulgent and saccharine, and I seriously hope that it's over.
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I disagree with much of what you say, but DAMN you say it well.
DrClef:
--- Quote from: aphanisis81 on 19 Feb 2015, 12:09 ---
--- Quote from: DrClef on 19 Feb 2015, 12:02 ---The problem I have with the recent failures of writing is that all of this is happening with CLAIRE.
What I loved about Claire was how well she fit in to the group. She was basically just another character in the group. Oftentimes I'd completely forget that she was trans at all: like the wedding arc. It wasn't until she got back and had that conversation with Clinton that I remembered "Oh yeah. . . that would actually have the possibility of being dangerous for her."
But the moment she has a relationship with Marten it felt like she wasn't allowed to be Claire any more. Instead she had to be "ICONIC TRANS FEMALE CHARACTER." And Marten had to be "PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDING CIS MALE BOYFRIEND." Because this wasn't just another relationship. This was CLAIRE'S RELATIONSHIP! And it is big and important and significant and we need to make sure everyone knows that this is perfect and without problems and spend thirty pages on it and bleh.
Whereas: imagine how much more powerful the message would be if Jeph just handled it the same way he handled the start of other relationships? The message then would be "Trans-Cis relationships are just the same as any other: the issues can be different, but the relationship is the same."
Like. . . why did #2900 need to exist? Claire is going to have bad days? Of course she is. Everyone has bad days. I want to see Claire have a bad day and have Marten cuddle and support her. That's how a good writer would have handled it.
Hell, that's how JEPH would have handled it. He said more about Marten and Faye's relationship in a single hug in #2816.
I think it's unfair to characterize the critics of Clairten as wanting to see them break up for the sake of drama. A lot of us shipped the two and were happy as hell when they got together. But looking back at the entire arc, it felt self-indulgent and saccharine, and I seriously hope that it's over.
--- End quote ---
I disagree with much of what you say, but DAMN you say it well.
--- End quote ---
I'm okay with that. What's done is done, and people will feel the way they want to. I'm just trying to help others understand why some of us who are unhappy with how it turned out feel that way, and why it's not just 'boohoo I hate happiness gimme drama.'
TRVA123:
Yeah, I'm really sick of people ignoring the points we make and then going "But why do you hate to see Marten/Claire happy?!! Do you just want teh Dramaz all of the time?"
If that is all you're getting from the walls of text we're spewing out, then you're missing several important somethings.
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