Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
"All Zen-Contented": Who is Marten Reed?
Jab:
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 05 Apr 2015, 12:32 ---
--- Quote from: happyninja42 on 31 Mar 2015, 17:26 ---His mother establishes in a strip that a lot of the "aunts" he had growing up were actually drag queens, so I don't think it took Tai to make him be comfortable with Clarie's story of her trans,nature.
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In context, it seems clear to me that some of Veronica's cabaret friends were drag queens, and some of them were trans women, and that neither Veronica nor Marten really understood the difference. "Actually dudes" is not a kind thing to say about either a trans woman or a drag queen, and Marten has an undisguised disgust reaction when the topic comes up. If that were how he currently related to Claire's gender, she wouldn't be dating him, and that's why I cited strip 457 as an example of the growing up that Marten did between spring '04 and summer '05.
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Honest question: I can get why it's impolite to describe a trans-woman that way, but why a drag queen? Using "young male parlance" (which Marten & Steve both actively speak), anyone who's a male is a "dude", so it seems like Marten's just describing the situation (I knew a couple of drag queens a few years ago, and they both described themselves as gay men pretty freely). And yeah, he's clearly not interested by the idea of men flirting with him, which is pretty understandable for the heterosexual male that he is/was. Especially because he was a teen at the time. And most of the guys I know would have found that absolutely TRAUMATIC at that age, such is the homophobia of youth- Marten's reaction is pretty normal and subdued.
And obviously, the strip was written QUITE a few years ago (before "The Talk", even), and to be honest, the "proper public dialogue" of terms for the LGBTQ spectrum has changed so rapidly over the years that it's nearly-impossible to keep track, especially for the trans portion of it- even now it's highly-complex and full of "oh wait I hope that's not offensive" mistakes (I've read blog posts where someone posted a sexy picture of themselves, and a random watcher said "wow, you're an attractive woman/I like women like you" or something like that, and the target came up with "well thanks, but I actually identify as an ____ ____ ____" with a bunch of different terms... I mean, how would he know without a scorecard, right?).
Jeph, who I am fairly certain was never anti-trans or LGBTQ in any way, probably had no idea what the "proper" terms were either, given the time that comic was posted, and especially in the early days, tended to have Marten express his views about certain things.
AprilArcus:
--- Quote from: Jab on 11 Apr 2015, 05:46 ---Honest question: I can get why it's impolite to describe a trans-woman that way, but why a drag queen?
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Good question, with a few answers.
1. "Dude" isn't an unloaded term for a man, it is a term for a masculine man engaged in dude culture. I know plenty of men who are definitely 100% men but who would bristle at being described as "dude" or "bro". While it's possible for me to imagine a drag queen who has a "dudely" affect off stage, that is at odds with the kind of drag queen who would go to a friend's house party en femme.
2. Contrasting drag from what would have been called "transsexual" identities in the '90s and what is now known as "transgender", sensu stricto: drag is gender-based, highly sexualized performance art in a public context, and can be done by cis men or trans women (or any other gender). Being a trans woman is a pervasive, 24/7 lived experience independent of performance or sexuality. The fact that Veronica's so-called "very convincing drag queen" friends would attend a private house party en femme indicates that their feminine identification extends into their private lives and that they might also be trans women.
3. If a quarter of Veronica's burlesque friends were so "convincing" that young Marten had no inkling after their trans* status, they might very likely have been medically transitioned trans women on hormones. It's possible (and would be in character) for Veronica to be oblivious to this shibboleth.
--- Quote ---Using "young male parlance" (which Marten & Steve both actively speak), anyone who's a male is a "dude"
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Marten doesn't use "young male parlance" anymore, and that change corresponds roughly to the introduction of Tai to the cast. Steve still does. This is part of the broader point I'm making about Marten's evolution.
--- Quote ---And most of the guys I know would have found that absolutely TRAUMATIC at that age, such is the homophobia of youth- Marten's reaction is pretty normal and subdued.
--- End quote ---
There is nothing normal about being a homophobic youth. Homophobia isn't a natural stage we pass through on the way to enlightenment, it's just the product of unquestioningly absorbing the messaging of a homophobic cultural background. Young Marten gets no pats on the back from me, but present-day Marten certainly deserves credit for unpacking, re-examining, and abandoning that cultural baggage.
Jab:
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 ---1. "Dude" isn't an unloaded term for a man, it is a term for a masculine man engaged in dude culture. I know plenty of men who are definitely 100% men but who would bristle at being described as "dude" or "bro". While it's possible for me to imagine a drag queen who has a "dudely" affect off stage, that is at odds with the kind of drag queen who would go to a friend's house party en femme.
2. Contrasting drag from what would have been called "transsexual" identities in the '90s and what is now known as "transgender", sensu stricto: drag is gender-based, highly sexualized performance art in a public context, and can be done by cis men or trans women (or any other gender). Being a trans woman is a pervasive, 24/7 lived experience independent of performance or sexuality. The fact that Veronica's so-called "very convincing drag queen" friends would attend a private house party en femme indicates that their feminine identification extends into their private lives and that they might also be trans women.
3. If a quarter of Veronica's burlesque friends were so "convincing" that young Marten had no inkling after their trans* status, they might very likely have been medically transitioned trans women on hormones. It's possible (and would be in character) for Veronica to be oblivious to this shibboleth.
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Ah, OK- cool! Thanks. The "going to a friend's house en femme thing is a bit I hadn't considered. It DOES make me wonder if Veronica knew the difference. Or Jeph (there's a good chance he didn't. I mean, it was obvious that "they were VERY convincing drag queens" was a punchline more than anything meant to be taken apart and read into).
--- Quote ---Marten doesn't use "young male parlance" anymore, and that change corresponds roughly to the introduction of Tai to the cast. Steve still does. This is part of the broader point I'm making about Marten's evolution.
--- End quote ---
Well, Marten still uses "dude" I think, but Steve has become much more of a "bro" over time. I think this isn't so much about Tai's introduction to Marten changing how he speaks and reacts about things, and more about Jeph the writer including Tai as part of his attempts at diversity/inclusion. I don't think Marten was taken aback by any of her descriptions of the poly lifestyle at Smif, for example.
--- Quote ---There is nothing normal about being a homophobic youth. Homophobia isn't a natural stage we pass through on the way to enlightenment, it's just the product of unquestioningly absorbing the messaging of a homophobic cultural background. Young Marten gets no pats on the back from me, but present-day Marten certainly deserves credit for unpacking, re-examining, and abandoning that cultural baggage.
--- End quote ---
I think it's quite common for teenage boys to be a lot more defensive about their heterosexuality than they would be as adults- in this case, literally phobic of homosexuals. Anything out of the ordinary or unknown to you can be quite disconcerting at that age, and the clique-ish nature of kids makes that even worse ("OMG- they're DIFFERENT!"). Pretty much everyone I've ever met was more of an ass at that age. I certainly was.
I think that's why anti-gay bullying in High School is so much of a thing- I don't think that keeps up to such levels into adulthood, once people have matured a bit. Obviously it still does for SOME folks, as we all unfortunately know of many examples, but I think a lot of people mellow out.
Good example: You wouldn't have caught me dead hanging out with drag queens or going to a gay bar in High School- I wasn't ANTI-gay, but there was just no way I would go. Only a couple years later, I was going to one with my bisexual girlfriend at the time, and talking with her drag queen friends (both gay males).
valkygrrl:
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 ---
1. "Dude" isn't an unloaded term for a man, it is a term for a masculine man engaged in dude culture. I know plenty of men who are definitely 100% men but who would bristle at being described as "dude" or "bro".
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But that's in your circles, not everyone lives immersed in post-modernist queer culture. In my circles and probably jab's since the question was asked, it is an unloaded term for man, it is not an identity. In most of the united states saying that Tyrion and Varys are 'a pair of dudes on a road sea trip' is perfectly acceptable, Varys is hardly a dudebro. You're attributing extra meaning to Marten's words which is fine for analyzing greater cultural trends but not for parsing individual intent. Marten _meant_ man and that's how we're expected to read it.
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 --- While it's possible for me to imagine a drag queen who has a "dudely" affect off stage, that is at odds with the kind of drag queen who would go to a friend's house party en femme.
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Really? That term is used unironically outside of the tri-ess crowd now? Awful, reducing womanhood to an aesthetic, almost as bad as the infantilizing "girl mode." Not even the transsexual menace used to.... *sigh* I'm getting old.
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 --- might also be trans women.
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And you're hinging your whole argument about outting transwoman on a 'might.' A 'might based on an aesthetic choice, not a lived experience (no evidence) or even an identity (no evidence) that you're describing so how does that extend beyond a vague well there's a chance of something the characters don't know therefore they were kind of jerks especially when....
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 --- It's possible (and would be in character) for Veronica to be oblivious to this shibboleth.
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And this is why that 'might' is so bothersome. Why would it be in character? Veronica did/does _fetish porn_. Corsets and high heels are guaranteed to lead to a huge trans following, it's only the fact that she's not a lesbian that keeps her from hitting the trifecta. She's not supposed to know anything about her audience? She's going to be unaware about the attitudes of her fans, clients and co-workers? Someone she works with isn't going to tell her? Why not? It isn't going to break stealth when drag queens are already assumed to be gay men.
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 ---Marten doesn't use "young male parlance" anymore, and that change corresponds roughly to the introduction of Tai to the cast. Steve still does. This is part of the broader point I'm making about Marten's evolution.
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Which is valid except on the matter of outting. Nothing in that past strip or his past behavior indicates he or Veronica would have done something as shitty as outting someone else. General douchieness doesn't necessarily or even probably extend to breaking a confidence. Like I said, someone who performs as a drag queen is assumed to be male, so all of this hinges on Veronica being told otherwise and then disregarding it. Something we have no evidence for.
--- Quote from: AprilArcus on 12 Apr 2015, 10:44 ---There is nothing normal about being a homophobic youth. Homophobia isn't a natural stage we pass through on the way to enlightenment, it's just the product of unquestioningly absorbing the messaging of a homophobic cultural background. Young Marten gets no pats on the back from me, but present-day Marten certainly deserves credit for unpacking, re-examining, and abandoning that cultural baggage.
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On that at least we can agree.
AprilArcus:
--- Quote from: valkygrrl on 13 Apr 2015, 07:02 ---Awful, reducing womanhood to an aesthetic, almost as bad as the infantilizing "girl mode." Not even the transsexual menace used to....
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womanhood-as-aesthetic is an appropriate lens for discussing drag-as-performance art.
public drag acts, private crossdressing, and transitioning are not "better" or "worse" ways of being transgender (sensu latto), they are just different modes of self-expression qualified by a hostile, transphobic world. Transitioning is currently the most socially acceptable of the three but at different times and in different cultures this hasn't been true, or even possible.
--- Quote ---Why would it be in character?
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Because on other occasions Veronica has demonstrated bad boundaries and a willingness to insult people for the sake of a joke.
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