Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
Buggman:
--- Quote from: emsilly on 22 Jun 2017, 12:36 ---Please take a step back and consider what you are saying. Your comment implicitly categorises trans women into a distinct category from women as a whole.
--- End quote ---
With all respect, they ARE. That's not to say that trans people shouldn't be treated with love and respect, but there is a world of difference between being born female and receiving surgical and hormonal treatments to adopt an outwardly female body. If someone is in a relationship with a trans-person and is cool with that (and I known at least one person who was), great! But if, say, a guy is romantically and sexually involved with a girl and finds out she was born with boy-parts after the fact, the vast majority will feel that they have been deceived. You can try to call it "phobic" and "bigoted" all day long, but that doesn't change anyone's personal feelings.
For what it's worth, I sympathize with the trans-person as well. Both partners in that case are in an emotionally difficult situation, and calling the cis partner "transphobic" is simply being unreasonable and bigoted on the other side. My trans friends, while they are personally hurt by that kind of rejection, are also more understanding of it than you've proven to be.
But I see that once again, you've ignored my main point.
oddtail:
--- Quote from: Buggman on 22 Jun 2017, 13:26 ---
--- Quote from: emsilly on 22 Jun 2017, 12:36 ---Please take a step back and consider what you are saying. Your comment implicitly categorises trans women into a distinct category from women as a whole.
--- End quote ---
But if, say, a guy is romantically and sexually involved with a girl and finds out she was born with boy-parts after the fact, the vast majority will feel that they have been deceived. You can try to call it "phobic" and "bigoted" all day long, but that doesn't change anyone's personal feelings.
--- End quote ---
The fact that something is someone's "personal feelings" does not automatically make the attitude that led to those feelings valid. The fact that someone "feels deceived" does not mean they've BEEN deceived, and in fact, it's an attitude that's strongly influenced by both real-life bigotry and, to an extent, the prevalent portrayal of transwomen in culture (see this for a - short - analysis of this in fiction, specifically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q78qaT8JZ_A ).
The fact that someone feels a certain way does not automatically mean there is no bigotry behind it. There used to be a LOT of people in, say, the United States, who were disgusted by seeing a black person in an establishment frequented by white people. They were certainly conditioned to feel that way by the culture they came from, but it doesn't mean their attitude and behaviour was not bigoted, by sole virtue of this being about their personal, subjective feelings.
One cannot control one's emotions, but that doesn't mean the REASONS for those emotions can't be recognised, analysed and dissected. If someone feels deceived by the fact that they hadn't known a person was trans, they can't exactly STOP feeling that way, but they are still capable of realising those feelings are an echo of a cultural, bigoted bias they internalised, and come to terms with that.
I lately quote a lot of personal examples on this forum, sorry about that, but I'm trying to bring my explanations to a level I can explain. My wife is a very compassionate person, I would not describe her as a bigot. But due to her upbringing and the fact that she and I live in a country that's about as white as Siberia in the middle of winter, she feels intensely uncomfortable around men of African descent with very dark skin.
Now, my wife does not act on these feelings. As I said, she's a compassionate person. She's a good person. She knows the way she feels is kinda screwed up, but it's not like she can change the way she feels. BUT, she acknowledges that those feelings do come from a kinda racist place. She corrects for that.
Now, if she ignored the issue just because her fear is her feelings? Or if she felt that it's normal for her to be afraid, or let it influence her actions, or her opinions about black people, or anything like that? That'd be a horrible thing.
I *get* it if a person feels uncomfortable around trans people. I honestly do. For the longest time, culture and society told everyone they SHOULD not be ok with anyone who is not cisgendered. But acting like it's not something that comes from a pretty bigoted mental place (even unintentionally) is just wrong. "It's feelings, therefore it's valid" is not a defense. Feelings should not be ignored or suppressed, they should be acknowledged and examined. But feelings and emotions alone do not automatically justify attitudes, words and actions. If feelings were a "get out of jail free card", it'd be OK to stab someone every time we feel really angry. Which, well, it is not.
Case:
--- Quote from: Buggman on 22 Jun 2017, 13:26 ---With all respect, they ARE. That's not to say that trans people shouldn't be treated with love and respect, but there is a world of difference between being born female and receiving surgical and hormonal treatments to adopt an outwardly female body. If someone is in a relationship with a trans-person and is cool with that (and I known at least one person who was), great! But if, say, a guy is romantically and sexually involved with a girl and finds out she was born with boy-parts after the fact, the vast majority will feel that they have been deceived. You can try to call it "phobic" and "bigoted" all day long, but that doesn't change anyone's personal feelings.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I feel I can do better than trying, friend ...
EDIT: Nobody said that heterosexuals have to make out with their gay friends to prove they're not homophobic - but I've only ever met one kind of twat who vented their "personal feelings" in that regard publicly.
Welu:
--- Quote from: Buggman on 22 Jun 2017, 13:26 ---
--- Quote from: emsilly on 22 Jun 2017, 12:36 ---Please take a step back and consider what you are saying. Your comment implicitly categorises trans women into a distinct category from women as a whole.
--- End quote ---
With all respect, they ARE. That's not to say that trans people shouldn't be treated with love and respect, but there is a world of difference between being born female and receiving surgical and hormonal treatments to adopt an outwardly female body. If someone is in a relationship with a trans-person and is cool with that (and I known at least one person who was), great! But if, say, a guy is romantically and sexually involved with a girl and finds out she was born with boy-parts after the fact, the vast majority will feel that they have been deceived. You can try to call it "phobic" and "bigoted" all day long, but that doesn't change anyone's personal feelings.
For what it's worth, I sympathize with the trans-person as well. Both partners in that case are in an emotionally difficult situation, and calling the cis partner "transphobic" is simply being unreasonable and bigoted on the other side. My trans friends, while they are personally hurt by that kind of rejection, are also more understanding of it than you've proven to be.
But I see that once again, you've ignored my main point.
--- End quote ---
Moderator Comment This type of language is not acceptable. "Parts" are not gendered. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. End of. No more discussion. Asking that to be respected is not another form of bigotry. It's requesting basic decency.
jwhouk:
--- Quote from: A Duck on 22 Jun 2017, 11:32 ---Renee's original appearance was for the one-off joke that the Secret Bakery was the "anti-Coffee of Doom".
As you can see in 1845, there's some random guy we've never seen again talking to Elliot, which is most likely supposed to be anti-Marten; and then we have Renee, which looks exactly like Faye except for skin color, and finally Padma, who was the "anti-Dora" and this might have lead into her thing with Marten.
I don't think Jeph even intended to make her a recurring member of the cast at that point. Hell, I wonder if she was even supposed to be Angus' ex at that point.
When she finally resurfaced, it makes sense to give her a little more personality, appearance-wise.
--- End quote ---
The one-off guy was likely Jim, the owner. Same art change between him and current as with Renee.
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