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Which Languages do we speak?

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Tlaloc:
Hi.

Figured we can have some fun, learn a little more about one another.

Personally I'm,
English (Native)
Czech/Slovak (high-intermediate)
French (low-intermediate)
Dutch (beginner)
German (beginner)
Polish, Russian, Serbian (swearing fluently, otherwise useless)

I should probably put the Czech/Slovak as Czechoslovak but the language never officially existed - to clarify I really drop words from one or the other into my conversations sometimes, partly because I learnt the language from my friends as opposed to taking formal lessons. I also use a few dialect words specific to the area I live in, which made travelling to Prague and Bratislava fun sometimes...

I also really have a habit of learning a bit of the language, a lot of words, but then really giving up when it comes to the grammar. I attribute this to the fact that I don't really remember learning grammar at school in English, and the grammar is generally so simple that you can kind of pick it up without making any conscious effort. Not so in other languages, I've found. Czech is basically just from practise and being forced to use it on a regular basis.

French is at the level it is because I had to learn it at school, didn't really appreciate it but with all the French loanwords in English, I find that it stays somewhat fresh. Dutch and Hungarian, I learnt a lot of phrases before planned holidays but never really got to use them. That said though, I have a trip to Holland coming up, so perhaps I can try it. Also the current girfriend speaks Dutch and having a private language is always handy. German, I had two girlfriends who didn't ever want to practise with me. That and I could never remember which die der das belonged to which word so stuck at Beginner.

The other slavic languages are from friends, mostly just swearing and drinking times.

What about you guys?

oddtail:
Polish is my native language. I don't speak any other Slavic language, but due to the similarities between the three, my Polish helps me understand the general gist of what a person means when they speak Czech or Slovak. I've tried to understand people speaking Ukrainian or Russian on occasion, but that's a bit too far. I can sort-of make out a few words here and there, if I'm lucky.

English I've learnt, but by now I consider myself proficient enough that I might as well be a native speaker (I do think I've passed the point that most learners of a language never do, where it doesn't feel like it's a foreign language that I'm speaking. I even think in English with some frequency.)

This does not have direct impact on any language skills, but I studied Linguistics at college (in an English Studies department), so that helps me with understanding the inner workings of language in general, and of English specifically. I figure I'm more comfortable with early Modern English (say, Shakespeare) than most natives are. It always surprises me a bit that Britons or Americans tend to have trouble reading Shakespeare without annotations...

I studied French for quite a few years in school at then some more at the university. I forgot more knowledge than I retained, sadly. I understand written French perfectly well as long as I have a dictionary handy to check a few words here and there. Spoken French is tougher, I struggle to understand anything more than simple conversations, but if I talked to someone who speaks slowly and patiently, I'd probably manage.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be able to speak or write in French beyond the VERY basics. Mostly due to how complex French grammar is (said the Polish guy...). I plan to re-learn the grammar, though, and expand my vocabulary, because I feel like much of the knowledge is still in my brain, buried deep, and I could speak decent French if I put a few hundred hours of work into it, to refresh my existing skills and fill in the gaps.

Since (written) Spanish is pretty similar to French, I could probably grasp the basic message of a simple text due to similarities of vocabulary, if I strained. That'd be even trickier than trying to understand Czech or Slovak, though.

I studied German for three years in High School. I can understand a few words and maybe read a few simple sentences based on mostly guesswork. Not much beyond that, though.

I'm thinking, in addition to re-learning French, about learning Korean. I even learnt the entire alphabet once, as a tentative first step (it's super-simple as writing systems go and much more logical than ANY other writing system I've ever seen, I literally learnt it in an hour or two... then promptly forgot everything due to not practicing even once). Lack of time keeps getting in the way, though.

Also, I love to pick apart the grammar and etymology of languages I don't speak (reading Wikipedia articles about the grammar of random languages is something I do surprisingly often). Also, to learn songs in languages I don't know a single word of. I'm weird that way.

_______________________

EDIT: Tlaloc,


--- Quote ---I attribute this to the fact that I don't really remember learning grammar at school in English, and the grammar is generally so simple that you can kind of pick it up without making any conscious effort. Not so in other languages, I've found.
--- End quote ---

It's not actually due to the simplicity of the grammar. If English is your native language, that's what the difference is between learning a language and acquiring it, according to some theories in linguistics. Languages acquired early in life are not picked up as a skill, but an almost innate ability that our brains are hard-wired to pick up. It changes later in life, that's why you have to pick up theory and rules and learn exceptions by heart in foreign languages. That's also the reason why uneducated people can always speak their own language grammatically, correctly and with no effort. Their brains don't need to "learn" much, when the person is young enough that the language "settings" of the brain have not... solidified yet to match their native language (or languages).

This is related to the theory of Universal Grammar, which Wikipedia explains pretty well if you're interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_grammar

Tlaloc:

--- Quote from: oddtail on 29 Aug 2017, 03:20 ---Polish is my native language. I don't speak any other Slavic language, but due to the similarities between the three, my Polish helps me understand the general gist of what a person means when they speak Czech or Slovak. I've tried to understand people speaking Ukrainian or Russian on occasion, but that's a bit too far. I can sort-of make out a few words here and there, if I'm lucky.
--- End quote ---

I have the same experience in Russian, with the advantage that I have a small vocabulary from the aforementioned.  I also listened to a lot of Kino and looked up the lyrics but not really much help in direct word for word translation. Polish orthography gives me nightmares, but I can make myself understood when spoken, partly from the Czech plus odd bits but I never really studied or tried to.


--- Quote ---English I've learnt, but by now I consider myself proficient enough that I might as well be a native speaker (I do think I've passed the point that most learners of a language never do, where it doesn't feel like it's a foreign language that I'm speaking. I even think in English with some frequency.)
--- End quote ---

This is definitely my endgame, I'm not intending to go back to Britain... not if I can help it.


--- Quote ---This does not have direct impact on any language skills, but I studied Linguistics at college (in an English Studies department), so that helps me with understanding the inner workings of language in general, and of English specifically. I figure I'm more comfortable with early Modern English (say, Shakespeare) than most natives are. It always surprises me a bit that Britons or Americans tend to have trouble reading Shakespeare without annotations...
--- End quote ---


I was always okay with this at school. Massive amounts of eyerolling in class as the semi-illiterate guy was asked to read a page fo a play by the teacher. Of course these days I get the point, but at the time it was agony.


--- Quote ---Also, I love to pick apart the grammar and etymology of languages I don't speak (reading Wikipedia articles about the grammar of random languages is something I do surprisingly often). Also, to learn songs in languages I don't know a single word of. I'm weird that way.
--- End quote ---

Oh definitely. Definitely. Though I plough more time into the languages I'm trying to speak these days. Still some stuff (Hungarian and Lithuanian grammar, or Sanskrit for non-european languages) is awesome.


--- Quote ---EDIT: Tlaloc,


--- Quote ---I attribute this to the fact that I don't really remember learning grammar at school in English, and the grammar is generally so simple that you can kind of pick it up without making any conscious effort. Not so in other languages, I've found.
--- End quote ---

It's not actually due to the simplicity of the grammar. If English is your native language, that's what the difference is between learning a language and acquiring it, according to some theories in linguistics. Languages acquired early in life are not picked up as a skill, but an almost innate ability that our brains are hard-wired to pick up. It changes later in life, that's why you have to pick up theory and rules and learn exceptions by heart in foreign languages. That's also the reason why uneducated people can always speak their own language grammatically, correctly and with no effort. Their brains don't need to "learn" much, when the person is young enough that the language "settings" of the brain have not... solidified yet to match their native language (or languages).

This is related to the theory of Universal Grammar, which Wikipedia explains pretty well if you're interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_grammar

--- End quote ---

Interesting. And frustrating. I really hope one day to speak Czech with some degree of fluency and to be fair I can if the topic stays on certain points. Other things however and I'm all at sea. It's just learning vocabulary and grammar day by day for the time being.

oddtail:

--- Quote from: Tlaloc on 29 Aug 2017, 03:41 ---Interesting. And frustrating. I really hope one day to speak Czech with some degree of fluency and to be fair I can if the topic stays on certain points. Other things however and I'm all at sea. It's just learning vocabulary and grammar day by day for the time being.

--- End quote ---

It's something one has to force themselves through, in my experience. I started picking up English when I was about five, by playing a lot of video games (which were rarely translated into Polish back then). I had English classes throughout most of school, and read a lot, and by the time I was fifteen or so, I knew the English grammar well and had a very large vocabulary.

And yet, at the time I couldn't pick up a book and read it without being tired of it soon after. All the skills were there, I just wasn't comfortable enough. Talking in English? That was even tougher.

Generally, I spoke English theoretically well, in practice it was super awkward and I sounded rather artificial. I knew all the little gears that power the English language, but I'd had virtually no exposure to natural, "living", idiomatic English.

When I started talking to English-speaking people online in my teenage years, at one point something just kinda... clicked. I wouldn't say it happened overnight, but in a few weeks, I went from being very uncomfortable with speaking English, despite knowing it pretty well, to just sort of... speaking in English. So, from not knowing anything to finally something clicking in my head, it took over 10 years, probably closer to 15.

I find that happens with a lot of skills, not necessarily just learning languages. You need to reach a certain breaking point where you finally "get" it. It'll probably happen to you at some point, as well. Vocabulary and grammar of Czech will probably at one point just mesh together and you'll quickly grow more comfortable with the language as a whole.

Tlaloc:
Yeah. I'm sure. It helps being immersed and having a relationship and close friends who speak English as a second or third language and their firsts are Slovak and Czech. I have quite a decent command of some idiomatic segments of the language. I can half read a newspaper article, on the right topic... I also swear like a sailor, mutter crude sexual jokes and can order beer and food all night. Living in Brno helped as well in that I picked up the Hantec slang of the area which has some German roots. Words like 'Salina' for Tram (compare, Tramvaj) and Krygl (pint in Hantec, from German) mean my Czech probably doesn't travel well, but I do really nicely in town as long as the topic doesn't get too abstract or philosophical.

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