Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
(CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
Tova:
Well, I've finished breakfast. 8-)
I've always viewed Faye's violence, particularly in the early days, as cartoon violence. That is, something to get a laugh out of ala Road Runner and Coyote, not something to wring my hands over.
However, given that you can draw a line of character development all the way from those early comics to the most recent, it's probably more useful to view it more seriously, at least for the sake of discussion.
So if we do that, how do you view Faye (a Mini Poll)?
a) Faye's behaviour has been inexcusable and irredeemable.
b) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but perhaps forgivable (if not excusable) given her past.
c) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but she is actively working on improving, and if she succeeds, then she will be (more) likable.
d) Faye's behaviour is just a part of her friendship dynamic, and is not as bad as everyone is making out.
e) A little bit from each of ?, ?, ....
f) Something else (specify).
And how do you feel about Marten's friendship with Faye?
1) Marten should have abandoned her long ago.
2) Marten deserves better, and hopefully things are improving.
3) Marten gets credit for seeing past her bad behaviour - Faye wouldn't be where she is now without him.
4) Marten is fine, they've always had a terrific friendship. And what close friendship hasn't had the odd rocky moment?
5) Something else (specify).
Curious to hear people's thoughts. My own will come later.
SpanielBear:
--- Quote from: Tova on 06 May 2018, 15:18 ---
(Snip)
So if we do that, how do you view Faye (a Mini Poll)?
a) Faye's behaviour has been inexcusable and irredeemable.
b) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but perhaps forgivable (if not excusable) given her past.
c) Faye's behaviour has been terrible, but she is actively working on improving, and if she succeeds, then she will be (more) likable.
d) Faye's behaviour is just a part of her friendship dynamic, and is not as bad as everyone is making out.
e) A little bit from each of ?, ?, ....
f) Something else (specify).
And how do you feel about Marten's friendship with Faye?
1) Marten should have abandoned her long ago.
2) Marten deserves better, and hopefully things are improving.
3) Marten gets credit for seeing past her bad behaviour - Faye wouldn't be where she is now without him.
4) Marten is fine, they've always had a terrific friendship. And what close friendship hasn't had the odd rocky moment?
5) Something else (specify).
(/Snip)
--- End quote ---
The problem with taking all of her actions as character defining is that it leads to dissonance. Because if, without context, someone was described as having done all the things Faye has done, then I'd feel they were a B at the very least- her violence is repetitive, generally remorseless and unprovoked. But that is completely at odds with how she is portrayed outside of that- in most of her appearances we do seem to be expected to see her, narratively, as sympathetic. Similarly Marten, if he were a real-life victim of Faye's abuse owes her nothing and is a firm 2 or even a 1. But again, all their other interactions show a genuine, healthy friendship that we seem to be expected to take as being authentic.
I think Jeph (now) is too good of a story teller and a designer of characters to make a mistake about this; to create a relationship and characters that are fundamentally unrealistic. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, there must be some background reason behind that being the case here. So for me, drawing a distinction between Faye as a character and her extreme violence as slapstick is the only way to resolve the confusion. It's a stylistic choice that has changed as the comic has changed, and the extreme violence is an artefact of that, not a aspect of Faye's "serious" character. That's why knowing a timeline would be useful- can we find a point at which the comic becomes more grounded in terms of characters and consequences, and does Faye's violence continue to be egregious after that point?
And once again, I'm not trying to say that any of this makes violence okay, or that any particular reaction to it is over-sensitive or wrong. What I do want to work out is whether slapstick violence explains (not excuses) Faye's previous actions, or if in fact she should be viewed as a fundamentally violent person, who abuses others and leaves them traumatised.
Is it cold in here?:
--- Quote from: Morituri on 06 May 2018, 02:08 --- I don't think Faye has ever left so much as a bruise on anybody.
--- End quote ---
There's a strip I don't have the number for where Marten mentions an ice pack in the freezer dedicated to treating injuries from Faye.
The time she knocked Marten unconscious was arguably self-defense although people at the time pointed out that anyone that drunk could have been put on the ground with her little finger.
Tova:
--- Quote from: SpanielBear on 06 May 2018, 15:35 ---The problem with taking all of her actions as character defining is that it leads to dissonance. Because if, without context, someone was described as having done all the things Faye has done, then I'd feel they were a B at the very least- her violence is repetitive, generally remorseless and unprovoked. But that is completely at odds with how she is portrayed outside of that- in most of her appearances we do seem to be expected to see her, narratively, as sympathetic. Similarly Marten, if he were a real-life victim of Faye's abuse owes her nothing and is a firm 2 or even a 1. But again, all their other interactions show a genuine, healthy friendship that we seem to be expected to take as being authentic.
I think Jeph (now) is too good of a story teller and a designer of characters to make a mistake about this; to create a relationship and characters that are fundamentally unrealistic. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, there must be some background reason behind that being the case here. So for me, drawing a distinction between Faye as a character and her extreme violence as slapstick is the only way to resolve the confusion. It's a stylistic choice that has changed as the comic has changed, and the extreme violence is an artefact of that, not a aspect of Faye's "serious" character.
--- End quote ---
I tend to agree, but another possible interpretation is that one of the assumptions is not quite true - either the violence wasn't nearly as bad as all that (and perhaps was exaggerated for comedic effect) or the friendship isn't as healthy as we think (I'm disinclined to believe this).
--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 15:38 ---There's a strip I don't have the number for where Marten mentions an ice pack in the freezer dedicated to treating injuries from Faye.
--- End quote ---
Along the same lines, this could have been simply a joke at Faye's expense.
--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 15:38 ---The time she knocked Marten unconscious was arguably self-defense although people at the time pointed out that anyone that drunk could have been put on the ground with her little finger.
--- End quote ---
I think she can be forgiven for having neither the presence of mind nor the bravery to just use her little finger and see if that works out okay for her. As far as I am concerned, the end outcome was good, and that's all that matters.
awgiedawgie:
--- Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 06 May 2018, 15:38 ---There's a strip I don't have the number for where Marten mentions an ice pack in the freezer dedicated to treating injuries from Faye.
--- End quote ---
That was 1681
--- Quote from: Tova on 06 May 2018, 15:48 ---Along the same lines, this could have been simply a joke at Faye's expense.
--- End quote ---
I'm inclined to think Marten meant it. I'm barely 10% through the archives, and I've already seen Faye punch Marten four times (once he thought his arm was broken, and once he thought he might have a concussion), punched Dora once, knocked out Agent Turing (yeah, that needed to be done to save Pintsize, but still...), and body-flipped Raven. Plus done a fair amount of threatening to several people. So at that point at least, Fayemergencies are a fairly regular occurrence. (There's also stuff with Pintsize and some of his friends, but they deserved it.)
Of course, she has also repeatedly resisted the urge to punch people, and has more than once expressed remorse for how she treats people - most notably Marten and Raven. In my opinion, even in just the first 450 strips, she has made noticeable progress toward being less violent. It's still her first instinct, but she seems to be getting better at controlling it.
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