Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
brasca:
--- Quote from: Zebediah on 11 Jan 2019, 08:38 ---So let me get this straight. We’re letting Crushbot off the hook for nearly killing Roko, but we’re condemning Faye for potentially hurting Crushbot’s feelings?
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If Crushbot was one of those drivers who didn't have insurance and just caused a major accident I can understand the contempt, but he isn't. And it's like I've previously stated Union Robotics is a struggling business that he doesn't have to patronize or recommend to his fellow AIs unless he's cool with taking verbal abuse and Faye is just giving him what he wants.
A small perverse otter:
I guess I'm a lot more sympathetic to Faye's PoV than everybody else is. Remember, the first thing Chrushbot said after they fell on Roko was "THERE IS NO NEED FOR CONCERN. SOMETHING BROKE CRUSHBOT'S FALL. THE ONLY INJURY IS TO CRUSHBOT'S PRIDE." Now, admittedly, Crushbot had no reason to know that the SOMETHING which broke their fall was actually a SOMEONE, but I can certainly see how the apparent callousness of the comment might set people off for a while.
As I see it, Crushbot was careless -- they really should have seen the crate of bananas and should have been sufficently aware of their surroundings to know that there was someone right behind them and adjust their fall. They weren't and they didn't -- and that's pretty bad. It's forgivable -- "Nobody likes you right now" really means "I'm still pissed" not "I hate you" -- but Faye's got every right to still be irritated.
(Also, didn't Crushbot used to be part of the fighting ring? If so, it's pretty likely that Faye's their friend, too. In that case, the abuse becomes more friendly grumping.)
Tova:
--- Quote from: de_la_Nae on 11 Jan 2019, 11:25 ---I don't have the energy for WCDT, but I feel like it bears mentioning that I would look askance at a *constructed* giant able to be foiled by one (1) errant crate of fruit. Like i dunno three legs, magic gyroscopes... something?
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Okay, so a part of the difficulty of discussing this - apart from the fact that my posts from yesterday were pretty much my emotional reaction rather than completely thought through - is that this is a ludicrous situation, isn't it? I mean, I can only imagine that Jeph had Crushbot slip on a falling crate of bananas to dissuade us from taking the whole thing too seriously. That was never going to work, of course, but still...
--- Quote from: Cornelius on 11 Jan 2019, 06:44 ---... Someone is driving a car on the sidewalk all the time, and doesn't see an obstacle, about the same size of a child drawing on the sidewalk, reverses, and kills someone. Should we be angry at that person?
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Well, yes, we should, because this person shouldn't be on the sidewalk.
Should Crushbot not exist? Eh, I don't know, it's impossible to judge. The whole situation is presented as a freakish accident. I have no idea in practice just how dangerous this chassis is. They are (apparently) repairing Crushbot's chassis, not replacing it with a safer one, so maybe it is safe and this really was just a freakishly unlikely accident. It can happen.
--- Quote from: DSL on 11 Jan 2019, 09:00 ---
--- Quote from: Zebediah on 11 Jan 2019, 08:38 ---So let me get this straight. We’re letting Crushbot off the hook for nearly killing Roko, but we’re condemning Faye for potentially hurting Crushbot’s feelings?
--- End quote ---
You're allowed to feel remorse, and attempt to offer condolences for, an accident that is determined to be your fault but which you did not intend. (Even if Thuh LAW and Pernicious Pedants insist we "intend" every consequence of our actions.)
Absent any indication C-bot delibarately sent Roko's chassis to Flatland, Faye's "No one likes you" is a tad bit uncalled for.
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I agree with DSL, but as I imagine Zebediah's post was aimed at me among others, I'll expand.
In saying "letting Crushbot off the hook," I take it that you believe Crushbot to be culpable. As it happens, I don't think he is. But not actually, that's not what I was doing. My opinion applies whether I "let him off the hook" or not.
I'm also not "condemning" Faye. I was criticising. No need to be dramatic.
--- Quote from: Case on 11 Jan 2019, 03:58 ---TL;DR - Yes, he shouldn't be in this chassis, or shouldn't walk it on the sidewalk, or get a sensor upgrade or safety training or whatever. I understand he didn't intend to hurt anyone, but "With great power ekcetra ekcetra"
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So, I've addressed this to a degree up-post. But, regardless of that, I'll happily go along with the idea that there should be some consequence to what has happened. Be that an upgrade, training, or a change in chassis. I think in the real world, they would all be good outcomes.
--- Quote from: Case on 11 Jan 2019, 03:58 ---And anger is something different than cruelty, which is what you seem to be reading here?
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Hmmm, yes, you've astutely got to the heart of the matter here. It was cruelty that I read in Faye's statement, not anger.
--- Quote from: Case on 11 Jan 2019, 03:58 ---Note e.g. that when she says 'Nobody likes you' she adds the qualifier 'right now', which implies that in the future, people will like him again. And it's ... IDK, close to the hyperbole you use around kids?
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Yes, I can see that. But honestly, I was left more strongly with the words "... and you're just gonna have to deal with that."
And yes, this is an emotional not a rational reaction, but that hyperbole did not, to me, imply that in the future people will like him again. I mentally appended to it, "for the rest of your life."
And you know what? He will have to deal with the fact that he almost killed someone for the rest of his life.
My emotional reaction to it was very heavily based on an assumption I made going in. Knowing QC and knowing Jeph, it's almost certainly wrong. But it shaped my reaction, so here it is.
I had assumed that Crushbot was traumatised by what had happened. And, whether at fault or not, was just as much in need of counseling as Roko.
But where Roko did get counseling (admittedly clumsy, but it's all about the jokes innit), Crushbot perhaps ironically got Faye's insensitive sass, with all the finesse of Crushbot in a china shop.
Can we just review the dialogue now?
Bubbles: Probably not a fruit basket, considering the cause of the accident.
Crushbot: CRUSHBOT WOULD ALSO LIKE TO EXTEND CRUSHBOT'S SINCERE CONDOLENCES.
Faye: You shut up. Nobody likes you right now and you're just gonna have to deal with that.
So: it's been stated outright that the cause of the accident is the fruit basket(*). What, am I overreading this statement? As someone else upthread stated, this could just as easily have happened to Bubbles, nicht wahr? She could fall on someone and kill them.
Crushbot has not retreated to a position of "well, this wasn't my fault." He is apologetic regardless. This is the right thing to do, isn't it? We're often so quick to condemn people with "faux apologies." Well, this isn't one of them.
I just can't imagine ever telling someone extending a sincere apology to shut up, unless they were guilty of something truly heinous. It's just unnecessary.
And if Crushbot does happen to be traumatised, then this will make things worse. I hope that's not the case.
I hope that all that happens is Crushbot's feeling are a little bit hurt.
No, I don't condemn Faye. She's probably still in a bit of shock herself. But I do worry that one of these days her inconsiderate words will have real consequences. Probably not this time. But one day.
Warning: you blabbed on again
I'm not taking sides.
I'm fine with someone telling Crushbot that they should have been more careful, or their chassis needs upgrades/replacement, or whatever.
And if Crushbot is indeed Faye's friend and this is sass between friends, then I take it all back.
Edit:
* Banana crate :roll:
Milayna:
--- Quote from: Cornelius on 11 Jan 2019, 06:44 ---
--- Quote from: Tova on 11 Jan 2019, 03:21 ---If someone lost control of their car after a rock hit the windshield, and someone were killed as a result, would your reaction towards that person be angry or compassionate?
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Aside from what Case answered above, let me adjust that image; Someone is driving a car on the sidewalk all the time, and doesn't see an obstacle, about the same size of a child drawing on the sidewalk, reverses, and kills someone. Should we be angry at that person?
I know the idea is that their chassis is their body, and that they're supposed to be accepted as people, but let's be honest, what is the heaviest person you're likely to see on a sidewalk? And are those people likely to be clad in metal? There's a good reason to separate traffic, even if some people think it might be a good idea to mingle it and slow down traffic.
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And this is what bothers me about Crushbot. let's skip the middleman: Say that the cars, themselves, are fully realized AI's. Well, they're people now. But does that mean we have to grant that they can just go down the sidewalk? May wanted to be a fighter jet; if she succeeded, welp, does the F-15 get to just roll into the bank now?
This gets really sticky, where the rights of fully autonomous people intersect with the reality that some of those people now have physical properties that historical civilization simply was not built to accommodate. There would need to be either radical restructuring of the physical space of the world - virtually impossible - or there would need to be some restrictions and the type of equipment that people are allowed to use; just as I can't drive a backhoe around to do my daily errands, it seems like a chassis such as Crushbot's would be, essentially, his "work vehicle".
Especially considering the body integration that Roko talked about that will cause problems of identity that has me coming down on a conservative side that I'm very uncomfortable with...but can't see any way past. If there's a "correct answer", I don't think society would have discovered it in the few decades since AI's were created.
Gyrre:
--- Quote from: Tova on 10 Jan 2019, 14:00 ---Damn, my "it's all about the jokes" sig got changed.
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I work with some pretty 'bottom of the barrel' temps and boy is that ever true. Thought avoidant indeed.
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