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JoeCovenant:
Not wanting to open this up agaion...

I thought Rogue One was a brilliant Star Wars movie.
A bit *rushed* insofar as this nobody getting all the Rebels to listen to her for some reason, but hey....

Insofar as the 'last' trilogy is concerned.
I don;t have a problem with there being female leads.... but they were written so goddamn poorly I can;t help but wonder if there mustn't just be a section of the fandom who can;t make the distinction between.. She's a female lead" to "She's a badly written female lead"

And Whatserface... the 'Cocktail Dress 'General' and Rose were SO badly written that people railed against them... It's just unfortunate that people apparently (Cos I honestly haven't seen any myself) can;t make the distinction between "That poor bloody actor's character was really badly written" to "THESE WOMEN ARE GARBAGE!"

The actors themselves are absolutely fine... but their material was dire.

Tova:

--- Quote from: BenRG on 01 Nov 2019, 02:40 --- Well, when you consider that Ashoka Tano, Leia Organia-Solo and Mara Jade-Skywalker (all women as well as empowered, intelligent and having chosen and succeeded in their own llife choices) consistently rank amongst the fandom's favourite characters, then I consider the argument for sexism as highly suspect.

--- End quote ---

I'd be interested to know if any of them were perceived as having got the better of a male lead.

BenRG:

--- Quote from: Tova on 01 Nov 2019, 04:55 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 01 Nov 2019, 02:40 --- Well, when you consider that Ashoka Tano, Leia Organia-Solo and Mara Jade-Skywalker (all women as well as empowered, intelligent and having chosen and succeeded in their own llife choices) consistently rank amongst the fandom's favourite characters, then I consider the argument for sexism as highly suspect.
--- End quote ---

I'd be interested to know if any of them were perceived as having got the better of a male lead.
--- End quote ---

Yes, in all cases. Mara especially, given how she made Luke look like a stumbling idiot half the time (his teenager-style crush on her was actually quite funny to read). Ashoka actually held Darth Vader to a draw and pulled the male leads of Rebels' backsides out of that particular fire; space stops me from listing the number of times she saved Anakin and Obi-Wan during the Clone Wars. As for Leia...? Well, there's always: "Put that thing away, you're gonna get us all killed!" Han was never dominant in that relationship, which was always fully equal with both of them saving each other many times.

Akima:

--- Quote from: BenRG on 01 Nov 2019, 02:40 ---The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.
--- End quote ---
Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from, and nobody bitched about that, so I'm calling double-standards there. And when, for example, MRA group Return of Kings organised a (feeble and ineffective) boycott of The Force Awakens as "SJW propaganda", I don't believe for one moment that they were making any sort of artistic judgement of the movie's writing, so I'm calling that BS too.

As regards Rogue One, sure these whiny douchebags were individuals (what else would they be?) but at the time the trailers came out there seemed to be an awful lot of them.

BenRG:

--- Quote from: Akima on 01 Nov 2019, 06:21 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 01 Nov 2019, 02:40 ---The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.
--- End quote ---

Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from, and nobody bitched about that, so I'm calling double-standards there.
--- End quote ---

But he didn't did he? He was a decent pilot and was able to get his X-Wing into battle without crashing it but he nearly got killed at least four times in the Battle of Yavin and needed others to pull his fat out of the fire. It wasn't until Obi-Wan actually told him to use the Force, reminding him of his minute level of training, that he realised that he had an alternative to the clearly-inadequate targetting computer on the X-Wing. By Empire Strikes Back, experience had made him a far better pilot and soldier but he was still very poor with his Jedi skills until Yoda gave him as much compressed training as he could (we don't know how long it took the Falcon to make its journey from Hoth to Bespin but it could have been weeks) that he was even able to hold off Vader for a short time. If Vader (a) didn't really think he was a threat and (b) had his own agenda, Luke would have been dead within a minute after that fight started. It would have been even longer for Luke to teach himself what little he could, mostly through Obi-Wan's journals on Tattooine before he was ready to rescue Han and, ultimately, face the Sith Order head-on in Return of the Jedi.

Compared to Luke's long struggle to acquire skills, Rey's really ace piloting skills and completely inexplicable expert-level lightsaber fighting skills is was ultra-easy for her.


--- Quote from: Akima on 01 Nov 2019, 06:21 ---And when, for example, MRA group Return of Kings organised a (feeble and ineffective) boycott of The Force Awakens as "SJW propaganda", I don't believe for one moment that they were making any sort of artistic judgement of the movie's writing, so I'm calling that BS too.
--- End quote ---

There will always be asses with an axe to grind. You can't judge a group by what, by your own admission, was a tiny minority.

The Force Awakens was largely met with a positive response by the fandom and so was Rey (although there was a lot of disquiet about the amount of hand-waving in the script about how she was doing what she was doing). It was hoped that The Last Jedi would explain things but it did not and that is when the hammer really came down on her being a badly-written Mary Sue character that the writers were trying to reinforce by making all the other characters into imbeciles.

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