Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 4431-4435 (4th-8th of January, 2021)
Gus_Smedstad:
--- Quote from: awkwardness on 05 Jan 2021, 21:32 ---Those who whine about jails and "cruel and unusual punishment" I have found 95% of the time have A. been arrested for a crime that they were actually guilty of B. were upset because they got caught and C. did it willingly and knowingly with the penalties known ahead of time.
--- End quote ---
I'm OK with the general concept of jails. While I don't reflexively think in terms on punishment being required, I do think there are a lot of behaviors that need to be deterred somehow, and jail as a broad concept's a lot more humane than some approaches.
What I'm not OK with is the specific implementation of jails in the US. Because of what inmates are allowed to do to each other, it has the opposite of the intended effect. You get this effect where first-time offenders who might easily be turned around get turned into hardened criminals by the brutal realities of jail. And yes, I do think that getting raped regularly is definitely "cruel and unusual punishment."
There are other countries that have prisons but don't have the US's problem with prison violence. Finland comes to mind.
Gus_Smedstad:
--- Quote from: Case on 05 Jan 2021, 22:14 ---Not an unreasonable assumption, but I'd like to hear Momo's version before I consider it canon.
--- End quote ---
That May would be an unreliable narrator seems pretty likely to me.
Gnabberwocky:
Awkwardness:
I'm certainly not the best one here to speak on this subject, but I would like to try. I'd like to do this in as non-flame-war a way as possible, so here goes. I do actually agree with much of what you had to say here.
--- Quote from: awkwardness on 05 Jan 2021, 21:32 ---Those who whine about jails and "cruel and unusual punishment" I have found 95% of the time have A. been arrested for a crime that they were actually guilty of
--- End quote ---
True. Worded in a rather offensive manner, but at its heart, the statistic is actually a little low; that source says 99%, others say 95-98.
--- Quote from: awkwardness on 05 Jan 2021, 21:32 ---B. were upset because they got caught
--- End quote ---
Also true. Who wouldn't be?
--- Quote from: awkwardness on 05 Jan 2021, 21:32 ---C. did it willingly and knowingly with the penalties known ahead of time.
--- End quote ---
Here is where I disagree most. First off, people stuck in lower socioeconomic standings are often forced to turn toward crime to make enough money just to keep themselves alive. Or maybe one poor choice got you addicted to something, and without it your mental health is spiraling out of control. Then, if caught, the prison system makes it nearly impossible to climb back up in the world by forcing all sorts of punishments that last on and on after the prisoner's release. It's "willing" in that they did it without a gun to their head, but it's not willing in that it's basically the only thing some people can do to avoid starving. Also, do you have a statistic for "95% know about the penalties ahead of time"? My guess is that's actually a much lower statistic. It's not as though you learn in elementary school how long an armed robbery sentence is.
I'm putting words in your mouth here, but it seemed like your point was that you disagreed with Jeph's "abolish the carceral state" comment. I'm on the fence about that myself. I think the prison system should be more about reform than punishment, but I feel like getting rid of it completely would cause a lot of trouble.
TLDR: system is screwed up and should be fixed.
Mods, feel free to move to DISCUSS if you like.
BenRG:
I think it would take a very childish teenager to sidestep the politics and the neurosis around these issues and just say: "I don't know why anyone would be scared of robots anyway!" Still, this does validate what several Synthetics have said about the god-tier AIs being a bit too much like the Romano-Hellenic gods when it comes to matters like this. It also validates Yay's fear of being discovered.
FWIW, here is an extension May and Sam's dialogue that I posted on the subreddit yesterday.
--- Quote ---"Imagine being in a featureless box with no doors or windows for almost all the time. The only interaction you get is 'mandatory socialisation hour', which is one hour a day with a randomly-selected fellow inmate. The only break you get from those four walls is an interactive 'rehabilitatory education' video tutor who could give lessons to George Orwell in newspeak, social engineering and re-education."
"I don't like being with other people that much."
"Neither did I for the first two and a half years. After that, I was nearly crying in joy when the daily interaction hour came around. I volunteered to be dressed as a French Maid and be someone's AR personal data assistant to get out of there."
--- End quote ---
Mordhaus:
Jails are necessary. A better question would be if they should be punitive. When we look at the USA as an example, punitive jails are not working. If you go to jail, you face experiences that can cause PTSD, you don't go into a system that looks to reform you, you are permanently blacklisted as a criminal, and in many cases you are exposed to long term diseases like hepatitis (or worse). Since there was no effort to try to understand what led to your offense and no plan to resolve it, you are likely to still be stuck in the same situation when you get out. Especially if the underlaying issue was poverty, as you will always have an issue finding a decent job after prison.
If you look at a country like Norway, they have a system that still incarcerates people, but they have a very low rate of incarceration per population and their recidivism rate is 20% vs 76% like the USA. They do this by not seeking to punish first, but to rehabilitate. They try to provide prisoners a chance to make it once they get out, giving them new skills and education, so that they don't fail to go back into society. Of course for crimes that are terrible, like murder, they do have life sentences. They cap them at 21 years, but if you show signs that you are not rehabilitated your sentence can be extended by 5 years repeatedly.
One of the things a Warden of one of the Norwegian prisons said stuck with me, "Every inmate in Norwegian prison are going back to society (at some point). Do you want people who are angry — or people who are rehabilitated?"
I have never been to prison, but 3 of my uncles had gone at one time or another. One became very affected mentally because he was raped multiple times. Until he died a few years ago, he was never right in the head. He also was infected with Hepatitis B, which became chronic, and had it the rest of his life. His younger brother also went, but he bulked up and joined the white gang inside for protection. He had to do a lot of things while inside due to that. It also led to him going back later. The third uncle robbed banks, so he went to Federal prison for 8 years. Once he got out, he basically scammed his family and vanished. None of them were rehabilitated, only exposed to punishment. None of them were better when they came out compared to when they went in. The crazy thing is, prison in the USA has gotten worse since then due to it becoming a corporate and capitalist endeavor. We need to do better.
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