WCDT Nov 14th - Nov 18th (4916-4920)

[Near Lurker]

Admittedly, talking to Yay is kind of moral zugzwang.

[Farideh]

TIL what 'zugzwang' is. My vocabulary has been extended!

At least Roko tried, and she has a point. Yay could've gotten a very different result if they had tried this approach on someone less obliging.

[sitnspin]

In a sense, Yay is correct. Persuasion is a form of manipulation and it does involve exploiting people's emotions.

[Jimor]

I have never gotten into a more heated argument with other writers than when I said it was the primary *goal* of a story to manipulate the reader into feeling what you want them to feel.

Just because it's a loaded word doesn't make it less true in a lot of circumstances.

[Tova]

I think it was on Cinema Therapy that it was said that the thing that filmmakers and therapists have in common is that they both manipulate you into feeling things.

[Farideh]

That very much sounds like a Cinema Therapy thing to say.

[Storel]

I have never gotten into a more heated argument with other writers than when I said it was the primary *goal* of a story to manipulate the reader into feeling what you want them to feel.

Just because it's a loaded word doesn't make it less true in a lot of circumstances.

This. "Manipulate" has such negative connotations for so many people that it's difficult to have a calm, reasonable discussion about good forms of manipulation.

For that specific example, you might get a less heated argument if you said it's the primary goal of a story to make the reader feel what you want them to feel.

[Dinaverg]

TIL what 'zugzwang' is. My vocabulary has been extended!

At least Roko tried, and she has a point. Yay could've gotten a very different result if they had tried this approach on someone less obliging.

although, after all our comparisons to Yay as a teenager in maturity; roko's cynicism really does seem to be getting in the way of the level of sincere, uncompromised (cf "it's good, but...") praise that Yay probably needs?

I dunno, not like I've ever raised a teenager. but I tutor people sometimes, and it's often important to start with what they've done well, or did right before you start talking about the mistakes they made, or, 'more tactfully', how they could improve, and do even better next time.

[Potato Farmer]

I have never gotten into a more heated argument with other writers than when I said it was the primary *goal* of a story to manipulate the reader into feeling what you want them to feel.

Just because it's a loaded word doesn't make it less true in a lot of circumstances.

This. "Manipulate" has such negative connotations for so many people that it's difficult to have a calm, reasonable discussion about good forms of manipulation.

For that specific example, you might get a less heated argument if you said it's the primary goal of a story to make the reader feel what you want them to feel.

People always make such a fuss about the idea of manipulation. Every form of interaction is manipulation, whether intentional or accidental.

And yet I have to deal with people thinking I'm a psychopath.

Instead of backtracking Roko should explain that it's important to avoid malicious manipulation, where you utilise falsehoods and coercion to push someone in a direction which is beneficial for your own goals but neglects their goals and/or well-being.

[John Allenson]

By giving unasked advice, Roko demonstrates one of the problems of giving unasked advice.

I adore Yay's look in the last panel.

And I'm completely on side with Elliot in that just getting relief from anxiety can feel like a better solution than increasing anxiety by trying to deal with underlying problems.  (When I get a vaccine, I tense up like anything over the needle - which is no more than a mosquito bite.  But the big thing I've learned from dealing with anxiety is that I can deal with anxiety.  The other thing is to know when to get a support human.)

[baronvonfritz]

...but gargantuan tits only can do so much. Know what I mean?

Counterpoint, gargantuan tits can do quite a lot, but not in the context of a PG-13 at best (swearing, sexual content, pintsize) medium. 

Pintsize as an adjective - yes!