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[Gryff]

Hey, forgive my ignorance but if someone could clear this up for me I'd be grateful.

I'm thinking about buying a mac, but I'm a little worried about software compatibility, namely in games. How do you know if a PC game is compatible with OSX? If I was to buy, say, Civilisation 3 would it work on a mac (given that the specs were sufficient) or would I have to buy a special mac version of the game? Are there likely to be performance problems due to the transition from pc to mac?

I run the risk of sounding stupid here I think, but…

[est]

they are completely different systems.  you need completely separate versions of every piece of software, because PC software (games or otherwise) will not run on a Mac.  in ye olde dayes there were hardly any Mac games, but these days there are a fair few, just released a little ways after the pc release (mostly).  i don't know about any differences in performance, unfortunately.

[nexus]

If you're looking to play games, avoid any Apple system entirely. There are very very few games released for OSX and the hardware specs of an Apple system don't begin to compare to a modern PC.

That said, if you can avoid gaming then a Mac might be a good choice as they tend to be better for (no offence intended) less technically savvy users.

[Kanno]

and the hardware specs of an Apple system don't begin to compare to a modern PC.

What?  This is complete BS.  Macs are just as fast as PCs, if not faster.

[will: wanton sex god]

Hey, forgive my ignorance but if someone could clear this up for me I'd be grateful.

I'm thinking about buying a mac, but I'm a little worried about software compatibility, namely in games. How do you know if a PC game is compatible with OSX? If I was to buy, say, Civilisation 3 would it work on a mac (given that the specs were sufficient) or would I have to buy a special mac version of the game? Are there likely to be performance problems due to the transition from pc to mac?

I run the risk of sounding stupid here I think, but…

ignore the fools.

anyway to answer your question, look on the box of the game you want, or ont he official site.  if the box somwehwer says its the mac and pc version (a good palce to check is system specs, if it lists mac ones there you go.)

my copies of both world of warcraft and warcraft 3 are compatible with both.  most of the big titles are.  macs arent really the best for running games, as everyoen will tell you, its just how it is, if you want to do mostly gaming, build a pc, because for the same price you can get much better game performance.  anywho its your call

[est]

where you say "most of the big titles are" do you mean that most of the big games are compatible with mac & pc in the same box?  i thought that that was pretty much only a Blizzard thing, hence my avid assertion that there are dedicated mac version of games.

also: can we please try not to turn this into yet another (goddamn fucking) macs vs pcs debate?  thanks.

[jeph]

If you're looking to play games, avoid any Apple system entirely. There are very very few games released for OSX and the hardware specs of an Apple system don't begin to compare to a modern PC.

That said, if you can avoid gaming then a Mac might be a good choice as they tend to be better for (no offence intended) less technically savvy users.

Neither of those generalizations are true, but I am sick and tired of debating them.

Est is right- it'll say on the game box whether it'll work on an Apple or not. I'm pretty sure Blizzard is the only game company that consistently dual-ports its stuff.

[McTaggart]

I think Epic does as well. I know UT2k4 had a window, an X and a penguin on the box.

[nexus]

Neither of those generalizations are true, but I am sick and tired of debating them.

In my experience and in relation to the original question asked, those generalizations are entirely acurate.

Gryff's original post was that he was worried about compatibility with games in particular, wondered if he would have to buy a special Mac version of a game, and asked about performance problems (in games) moving from PC to Mac. I don't see how my post was anything but informative. If you want me to abstain from generalizations, my post would have been pointlessly long and listed benchmarks and other technical information that wouldn't have helped him make a decision (in fact my initial post was much longer and was much more specific but I didn't think it would help him much and no one reads long forums posts anyway).

I had no intention of starting a debate as it's very rare that a conversation on Mac vs. PC doesn't devolve into a flame war. I was simply answering the man's questions.

And as far as game availability: I'm also unaware of any company which consistently releases their games for Mac aside from Blizzard. (I was also unaware that both versions of Warcraft 3 are in the same box - that's actually very interesting to me, thanks.) Some games are also ported to the Mac by various 3rd party companies--Google 'Aspyr Media'--but like I initially said, if you want a gaming machine stick with a PC.

[edit]
Unsure about Unreal 2k4. I have the DVD Editors Choice Edition and it has Windows and Linux support, although the Linux edition is "not supported by Atari" (*rolls eyes*).
[/edit]

[Kanno]

Listen:

The only thing about gaming with macs, is that lots of software companies don't release mac versions of their games because it's a pain in the ass to convert the programming from PC to Mac.

It has nothing to do with "performance issues".  I run UT2k4 on my mac, and that is something I would consider to be hardware intensive, and it runs like a dream.  No problems whatsoever.  

I'm just sick of dealing with these stupid stereotypes about macs that come from people who don't use them.  It's almost like, computer racism or something, and I'm sick of it.

EDIT:  In response to your original question, here's a link for a good list of all the newest games for OS X: http://www.apple.com/games/

World of Warcraft is in there, but I didn't see Civilization 3 offhand.

EDIT2:  Civ 3 is in there, I just found it.  http://www.apple.com/games/articles/2002/01/civ3/
SEE LOOK GAMES FOR MAC WOOOO

[Schmung]

The debate isn't about how well it runs on the mac, it's the fact that the PC, pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) will give you better gaming performance than the Mac. Simple as that.

If you love Macs and only want to play a few games, by all means get one. If you love games, get a PC.

[Mnementh]

I've had Mac OS Systems for well over a decade and never had a problem finding and running major release games.  My previous system (before my PowerBook) was a G3 266 and still running new games at the time (MOH:AA, Baldurs Gate II, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Warcraft 3, UT) well when it was six years old.

My current system is three years old I haven't had any problems, though I don't game much other than WoW anymore and that infrequently, I seem to have gotten bored with it in general.

My two cents.  Oh, and I have Civ3 for the Mac.

[Lug]

Ug...

I hate it when people compare Mac to "the PC". A Mac is just as much a personal computer as a standard dell "PC", the only difference between a "PC" and a Mac is is the processor used. Mac uses a PowerPC processors (RISC) while your standard "PC" uses x86(CISC).

Comparing speed is kinda hit and miss. Technically the x86 processor performs more clock cycles per second then a PowerPC (but I believe that the PowerPC can perform more floating point instructions per second then the x86), What really makes a differnce is the types of opperations performed. PowerPC is better at some then the x86 is and vice versa (therefor PowerPC can run certain programs faster then x86 can  and vice versa).

The only thing that causes few games to be ported to  Mac is the same thing that pervents games from being ported to Linux: 90% of the market runs Windows, why bother catering to the other 10%.

[Valrus]

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm a huge Mac evangelist, but even I have to admit that if games are your main thing, you're gonna want a PC. The stock video cards on any but the most expensive Macs are underpowered and non-upgradeable, and there are just not as many games for a Mac.

If all you want is (most of) the big names, a Mac will do ok, but the simple fact is that the gaming market is heavily skewed toward PCs. It's getting better, but it's still not even, not by far.

I'd be happy to tell you that in my opinion, a Mac is better for just about anything else. Games, however, are the Achilles heel, an area where I'm just not willing to try to argue the Mac's superiority or even its equality. I will say, however, that a Mac is adequate for games.

It's really just a question of how important gaming is to you.

Oh, and as someone else mentioned, pretty much any games besides Blizzard's will have to be re-purchased if you already have the PC version.

[nexus]

It has nothing to do with "performance issues".  I run UT2k4 on my mac, and that is something I would consider to be hardware intensive, and it runs like a dream.  No problems whatsoever.  

I'm just sick of dealing with these stupid stereotypes about macs that come from people who don't use them. It's almost like, computer racism or something, and I'm sick of it.

If I turn down the settings on Half-Life2 I can get it to run on a Pentium3/GeForce3. The $3k G5 system defaults with a Radeon 9600! That card is like 3 years old! I'm not attacking the Mac or using stupid stereotypes or false generalizations. Nor have I ever intended to start a Mac vs PC "war." And where did I say I don't use a Mac? Not as my regular machine, no. But I have used a G5 system extensively and have a Mini which I enjoy very much.

The fact remains that a Mac is not a "gaming system" which is apparently the only reason this post exists is the help someone answer that question. Here are game-specific benchmarks between Mac and PC systems: (althought both use a top-of-the-line configuration)
http://www.barefeats.com/mac2pc.html

So here's what my original post was before I shortened it:

How do you know if a PC game is compatible with OSX?
If I was to buy, say, Civilisation 3 would it work on a mac (given that the specs were sufficient) or would I have to buy a special mac version of the game?

Most PC games are written for the DirectX API which is Microsoft-only. This means their graphics engine is written for Direct3D. The alternatve graphics API is OpenGL which is available to any system (Windows, Linux, Mac). Neither API is inherently better than the other (Half-Life 2 is written in Direct X, Doom 3 in OpenGL). There are also differences between programming for an x86 system (Intel, AMD) and the PowerPC (Apple).

If a developer writes a game in OpenGL (e.g. the aforementioned Doom3) it will be much easier to convert it to Mac. If a game is written in DirectX, then the majority of architecture code will need to be re-written for OpenGL.

Things like textures, text files, and sound files will not need to be converted because they would use a standard format which PC and Mac both accept (with the exception of audio encoded with WMA)

The only game I know of that has a Windows and OSX install on the same disk is Warcraft 3 as 'will: wanton sex god' informed us.

Unless the industry has been sneakily providing Mac installs of its games akin to Apple having an Intel version of OSX ready for 5 years, you will have to buy a different version of a game for Mac and PC. (Aspyr Media, which I mentioned above, develops a large number of game which are ported from PC to Mac. I'm sure they have a list of "coming soon" titles which may be of use to you.)

Are there likely to be performance problems due to the transition from pc to mac?

There won't be performance problems if the developer ported the game correctly.

What you may see is slight differences in the graphics (due to conversion between DirectX and OpenGL) or having to run at lower settings/less detail, however this would almost exclusively apply to 3D games. Here are some random links I got from Googling various combinations of "game performance", "mac", "apple", and "issues" I'm sure you could come up with more information with a little better searching:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050315-4704.html
http://www.accelerateyourmac.com/games/mac_wow_performance.html
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/02/doom3/index.php


I doubt how much more useful all that was to Gryff than what I said in my first post.

Regardless, no more comments from me in this thread. Gryff has enough information to make a decision and that was my only purpose.


[edit]
Ok, no more comments from me, after this edit (Four posts between the time I started my post and the time I finally submitted it.)

I hate it when people compare Mac to "the PC". A Mac is just as much a personal computer as a standard dell "PC", the only difference between a "PC" and a Mac is is the processor used. Mac uses a PowerPC processors (RISC) while your standard "PC" uses x86(CISC).

Yeah, I know, I do too. Unfortunately that's become the accepted terminology and I have no intention of refering to Windows when talking hardware. But there are many more differences than just the CPU (and the distinction between RISC and CISC is essentially moot with modern CPUs)
Besides, how will we distinguish once Apple is running on Intel?

The debate isn't about how well it runs on the mac, it's the fact that the PC, pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) will give you better gaming performance than the Mac. Simple as that.

If you love Macs and only want to play a few games, by all means get one. If you love games, get a PC.

Perhaps I should have just said that.
[/edit]

[Addius]

Two more issues might be adressed though.

Firstly we have the rather obvious fact that Apple is moving the Mac over to the x86 plattform, presumably to get a better DRM/TCPA support. While a year in the future might seem far away, there is always the question of wether the system will be fully supported when it comes to third party software after the switch. If you are planning on playing games and are expecting to use the same system for atleast three years, I'd say you might get a problem.

There is a would-be solution to this, which leads to the second topic though, the use of alternative Operative Systems like Linux instead of OS-X. I expect that third-party software support for the PowerPC, including games, will stay better for a bit longer, atleast within the Linux-community. Wether or not you'd want to use a linux-based system instead of OS-X is all up to you though, but the possibility (and risk) is there.

Both of these issues are rather uncertain for the time being though, seeing as how noone really knows how the market will change when Apple releases their x86-based systems.

Personally I wouldn't buy a Mac ever. PPC systems is a whole other discussion but there's a slight difference, I don't want OS-X.

Trying to be a bit more objective though, I'd say that I would probably have waited untill they had made their x86-switch if I really wanted a Mac (I'm guessing most people mean OS-X when they say this). If I couldn't wait that long I would have gone for a "normal" x86-system.

And just because I reacted to it.. No, UT2k4 is not what I'd call a hardware intensive program.

[will: wanton sex god]

WILLis right- it'll say on the game box whether it'll work on an Apple or not. I'm pretty sure Blizzard is the only game company that consistently dual-ports its stuff.

[Gryff]

Thanks guys!

[Se7en]

To put it simply: Games require a very high performance computer to get the most out of them.

High performance macintoshes cost much much more than high performance PCs.

Mac gaming is always going to be compromised, even the mac evangelists will concede that. Personally, i have not yet found anything important to me that a mac can do better than a PC, but if you can, you may want to consider owning both systems. A desktop PC for example, could be complimented by a mac laptop.