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[Se7en]

Paladium will never work. The hardware industry has NO interest in implementing it. nVidia for example, make about half the gaming silicon out there, both GPUs and chipsets. They would be shooting themselves in the foot if they introduced paladium. Most motherboard manufacturers also do graphics cards, and high end gaming motherboards as a lucrative sideline, so they wont do it either.

As for adding it to the cpu? get lost. If iether of the big 2 did it, they would be handing the entire home market to the other on a silver platter.

The entire performance hardware sector of the industry relies on illegal software. If gamers and home users didnt steal software, they would never be able to afford the gaming upgrade cycle.

If palidium WERE ever implemented, it would drive software prices down to practically nothing, because every expensive program would be competing against a free open source equivelent.

The entire industry knows this. Even microsoft knows that their market share would nosedive if copy protection were perfect. Microsofts only real asset is their monopoly on the consumer OS. If they loose that, they will go the way of apple.

Its smoke and mirrors, nothing more. Nobody has the slightest intention of actaully implementing this in any meaningful way.

[est]

even if they did there would always be people who didn't, and the vendors that did take it on would probably drop it fairly quickly (or make it optional) when the ones that didn't take it on started to gain a larger market share.

most people want to be in control of their property.  it's a wacky concept, i know!

[Samari]

well the problem is that as far as the software/music/movie industries are concerned you don't own any of their products, you pay them and they let oyu use them.

[Addius]

se7en: from what I remember AMD, Intel and VIA have all decided to join the tcpa effort.. I don't know about transmeta or those Chinese x86 processors but your choice of x86 CPU's are growing thin.

And no, prices would probably stay pretty high even if it was implemented, otherwise it would already have been cheaper.

Do I need to add that most new DAPs supports the WMA DRM? The fact is that for the customers that doesn't dable in pirating software and such, this is actually a good thing.

Perhaps a new thread dedicated towards DRM/TCPA and such would be better if someone wants to continue to discuss it though. Sorry about this Threatis.

[Schmung]

You think thats lame?

linky to slashdot article

Sorry sir, you cannot wathc this DVD on your PC as your monitor is not sufficiently DRM'd. Fuck that shit.  Bridge too far and all.

[Addius]

Do you know why it's called Disney-DVD.. not because they think it's more fanzy, no.. it's because it's not a DVD. There's a very strict set of rules of what is permitted and required to use when releasing a "true" DVD.. So do yourself a favour, never buy any "DVD" that doesn't follow the rainbow-books and you won't suffer from that problem Schmung.

[SpacemanSpiff]

As for adding it to the cpu? get lost. If iether of the big 2 did it, they would be handing the entire home market to the other on a silver platter.

Actually, as Addius mentioned, both are working on it. Go have a look at the current Intel roadmap and look for LaGrange technology. That's their codename for TCPA/DRM implementations.
TPMs are already shipped in many PCs and laptops, for example most IBM/Lenovo come with a TPM. Same goes for many Samsung notebooks.

The entire performance hardware sector of the industry relies on illegal software. If gamers and home users didnt steal software, they would never be able to afford the gaming upgrade cycle.

Actually, their idea is: If a completely new technology is introduced, you will have to buy completely new hardware as well if you want to run up-date-software.
You will have TCPA-enabled screens, video cards, keyboards and mice, CPUs and mainboards and of course software as well as the entertainment industry profitting from it: Lots of cash for everyone, YAY!

If palidium WERE ever implemented, it would drive software prices down to practically nothing, because every expensive program would be competing against a free open source equivelent.

Again: No. It would probably allow the companies to charge even more. Why? You will need a TCPA enabled OS (running on a TCPA enabled computer - see above) to play your iTunes MP3s because their DRM relies on it. You will need it because your games' copy protection relies on it, same goes for your DVDs. Also, you will need it because you can identify yourself over the internet without a doubt with websites such as eBay or Amazon as TCPA can be used to prevent identity fraud (freedom of choice).
Of course, to run software on a TCPA-enabled computer (using the TPM, which is what the DRM requires), you will need to have your software, especially the OS, certified. Which costs money. Which means: Bye bye, Linux. Bye bye, freeware for that matter because nobody would pay for their software to be certified.

The entire industry knows this. Even microsoft knows that their market share would nosedive if copy protection were perfect. Microsofts only real asset is their monopoly on the consumer OS. If they loose that, they will go the way of apple.

Rumors have it that Apples switched to X86 because of Intel's LaGrange technology allowing DRM (which the music industry and especially the movie industry - Apple is supposed to work on a movie iTunes - asked for) to be used more effectively.
Given that IBM will release a mobile G5 as well as dualcore G5s soon, this seems like a plausible argument to me.

Fun fact: The record companies as well as hollywood love iTunes all out of sudden: For the very first time, it has been shown that people are willing to live with DRM. It has encouraged them, they had memos about this floating around. There were some articles I read about this, I think at heise.de and Slashdot.

[Se7en]

I wouldnt be too worried about this.. the entire industry is relying on introducing it as slowly as possible, and many companies will realise there is money to be made in dragging their heels.

The first step is of course going to be macs. Once macs have intel processors, nobody is going to really notice it when they implement DRM, since its a closed system to start with.

After this, the process of introducing DRM to the PC market is going to take decades. For starters, the lawsuits about anticompetitive practices alone will put it back 5 years. Thats a hornets nest that microsoft wants to avoid.

Yes, intel have DRM cpus on the roadmap, but we wont be seeing them for the PC. Intel already have the lions share of the OEM PC market, but large OEMs have very little interest in DRM, they dont care as long as they can sell boxen.

The only people with the influence to drive DRM forward are microsoft. Without a version of windows that insists on DRM, the whole thing collapses. But, microsoft will have legal problems introducing such an OS.

Even if intel and microsoft pull it off, others will profit greatly from dragging their heels. The longer AMD puts it off, the greater the market share they will grab. Its most likely that they will cheat, producing cpus compatible with DRM and non DRM operating systems.

The fact is, DRM for the pc in its current form, is bassically illegal. Its the ultimate in anticompetitive practices.

[Addius]

Haven't you noticed that the new AMD processors (ever since the launch of K8) have a non-executable function in it, which they claim is there to prevent certain viruses and such? Ofcourse this is what it does but it'd be naive not to believe they could change that into full DRM/TCPA practice without anyone noticing the slightest of difference.. Untill they suddenly can't run certain applications that is.

Mark my words though, the industry (as in the consumers with money) see this as a security measurement and want this whole thing to happen. It would also be good to remember that you will probably still be able to use unsigned software in some form or another, because there are way too many of these companies I mentioned above that also relies upon specialized software that their engineres program for single purposes. If not (a thought I find unreasonable) you'll always have Java, C# and any other interpret language which I can't remember for the time being.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I don't quite see how NX can be used for TCPA/DRM purposes.

And I personally think that the companies are willing to take the risk of taking a lot of flak for TCPA/DRM in the first half year, because after that, people stop caring.
Case in point: Remember when Intel introduced the unique CPUID back with the PIII? It was an outrage. People were worried about getting identified over the internet just by reading the CPUID or at least have software use it to determine what computer they're running on (which is what's happening today quie often).
It was even on the news over here.
And what happened? Intel simply ignored everyone and waited for 6 months. The protest vanished and now all CPUs have unique CPUIDs.

On the long run, it is indeed not in the companies' interest to sell TCPA/DRM locked hardware, but right now, it would be useful for the music industry and Hollywood.
Also, as Intel and Microsoft want to conquer the living room and replace all other entertainment devices by a computer and as this only works if the entertainment industry cooperates and as they want a "safe" enviroment (read TCPA/DRM), we do have a huge motivation here.

Also, did anyone read the news about PC BIOS getting replaced UEFI? Right now, their specification doesn't mention TCPA, but I'll be damned if they don't implement it. Look at the companies involved and tell me they're not working on that.
Why not choose OpenBIOS unless you wanted to implement something like TCPA?

[SpacemanSpiff]

I know that double posts are bad style and whatnot, but I thought that these news might be of interest.
Seems like Se7en is right: TCPA will start on Macs.

[Addius]

Which is ofcourse the very reason why they ditched the PPC architecture. Apple would never survive if their OS was usable on a "normal" x86 systems..

Ofcourse this also means that there won't be any macs running AMDs and alternative motherboards or any other hardware that isn't sold by Apple themselves. And people wonder why I don't like Apple?

[Oerdin]

And no, prices would probably stay pretty high even if it was implemented, otherwise it would already have been cheaper.

Prices will likely get higher not lower since the cost of getting software and hardware certified is supposedly fairly steep so only big companies can afford it.  Small and medium sized companies will go out of business while the big companies will be able to lock users in and effectively prevent them from switching to competing products in the future.  This will kill competition and that has never been good for consumers and has always raised prices.

[Addius]

I don't think it'll be that harsh, as I said earlier I'd be very surprised if unsigned programs was not allowed to be run at all. My guess is that they will make it an user-rights issue, like putting yourself in 'wheel' in linux. This way certain users will have the privilege of running uncertified programs, while others won't. ('wheel' was a bit drastic but you get my point)

[nihilist]

Heh.  Look into Apple's system.  DRM == OS X only installs on certain computers.  Done at a hardware level.

[yipjumpmusic]

unless someone stops east fork and vista I dunno...