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Der Tattoo Thread.

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Barmymoo:
I was trying to say that I don't think you personally are a bigot - just that the reaction itself is bigoted. But I didn't phrase it well, I'm sorry.

It's a question that might lend itself well to a Discuss thread actually. Should we allow groups like the Nazis and other extremists to appropriate symbols by refusing to condone/accept the non-fascist use, or should we simply require Hindus to give up an important symbol which has been around far longer than the Nazis? I personally believe that if enough people know about the roots of the swastika and can recognise the difference between the two types, eventually it could be reclaimed - and that's what those tattoos seem to be about.

It's a bit like the V for victory symbol and sticking two fingers up (this may only be a British thing). Two different meanings, easy to confuse unless you know.

Akima:

--- Quote from: Papersatan on 14 Nov 2012, 13:11 ---This is his explanation of the swastika.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---In the Chinese alphabet, the Swastika in a circle stands for “sun”, and without the circle it means the number 10,000 (in Chinese: wan or Wantzü) which means “come from the heavens”.
--- End quote ---

1) There is no such thing as a Chinese alphabet. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that, but the author plainly doesn't.
2) The swastika is a Chinese character, but it does not really mean anything other than, well, swastika. It simply symbolises itself as an auspicious character. You normally see it in the word 卍字 (also written 萬字, see 3 below) wànzì which simply means "swastika symbol".
2) The Chinese character for "sun" is 日. As you can see, it is not a swastika in a circle. My Chinese dictionaries don't include a swastika in a circle at all.
3) The Chinese character for 10,000 is 万 in Simplified and 萬 in Traditional. It is not a swastika, though it does have the same pronunciation as the swastika character: wàn.

To me, of course, 卍 is a holy (not quite the right word but I can't think of a better) symbol, one of the thirty-two marks of a Buddha, and its appropriation by the Nazis, and present-day association with the racist extreme right, is most unfortunate. I have very mixed feelings about the adoption of sacred symbols of one culture by another. I hope it is based on deeper cultural knowledge and understanding than that demonstrated by the linked article I quote above.

BeoPuppy:

--- Quote from: Barmymoo on 15 Nov 2012, 02:01 ---I was trying to say that I don't think you personally are a bigot - just that the reaction itself is bigoted. But I didn't phrase it well, I'm sorry.
[...]

--- End quote ---
Oh, don't be sorry, I'm not offended. I was just wondering about language.

Lines:
I generally tend to have problems with anyone who appropriates symbols from other cultures that 1) they are not a part of and 2) do not understand, especially when they have historically been taken and misused by other cultures. Obviously Neo-Nazis wearing swastikas will piss off pretty much everyone who isn't a white supremacist. But the people who wear a swastika that is a reference to Hindu and is knowingly wearing it to show that it is Hindu and not Nazi are not doing it in a negative way and therefore should not be frowned upon. You can be white and show reverence to a non-western religion, especially if it is one you have adopted. I think I am honestly more offended by people who just put symbols on their body and get them wrong or have no idea what they really mean. Same with tattoos in a foreign language (especially when it's a bad or incorrect translation).

Carl-E:
Seeing them with the dots, or the flared ends, provides cultural context for me as a viewer; however, even the centerpiece on Manwoman's back with it's birds is quite jarring. 

And to be honest, it took me about four tries to parse out the first sentence of the obituary - not because it was poorly written, but because the word swastika leaped out at me every time I tried to read it, making it impossible for me to see the words around it in context. 

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Some cultural baggage is heavier than others. 

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